The Sonuus i2m and the delay

[Starlord]

Hey all, I’m currently learning the bass and am using a Sonuus i2m to attach my bass to the recording software, great so far.

 

Unfortunately, I’m always having to play a split second before every note to get a decent score on the tutor software. I’ve tinkered with the buffers, etc. but was wondering if anyone had a setting or settings for the ASIO or i2M that works for them.

 

My best setting so far involves setting the ASIO hardware buffers to 4 but am willing to take instruction on what’s better! 

 

 

 

[velvetkevorkian]

If it's relying on the Sonuus' pitch to midi feature that will always have some inherent delay, especially at lower pitches. What application are you listening through?

[Starlord]

It’s a piece of software called Xtractor which is used in conjunction with the Gigajam website.

[tauzero]

Does the tutor software rely on MIDI?

[BigRedX]

The laws of physics dictate that in order to accurately detect the pitch of a given note, at least one and half cycles of the waveform are required. For low E on a bass guitar this means a delay of 37ms as a minimum between plucking the string and the pitch being detected. Even for the open G string this delay is around 15ms at best. On top of this there will be an additional delay for the MIDI processing and handling by the transcription software. Since for most musicians anything over 10ms is easily detectable, this will be your problem. It's compounded by the fact that the delay is not constant but variable due to the pitch of the note being detected and the preciseness of the playing technique.

Edited December 8, 2023 by BigRedX

[Bigwan]

Latency is a curse and one you're unlikely to defeat with the Sonuus as an audio interface I'm afraid. Tried that myself (For the uninitiated in the thread the Sonuus can act as a straight-up audio interface as well as an audio to midi converter).

 

Only audio interface/recording setup where it doesn't bother me is my Focusrite Clarett which uses thunderbolt 2 to my imac or macbook air. I can't feel any latency at all with it. I say feel because I find latency a feel thing rather than an audible phenomenon, especially if you play with your fingers. With a pick it isn't as detectable.

[Starlord]

Yeah, I feel it too as I use fingers. Ok, good to know I ain’t a problem child and it’s a ‘thing’ (which I knew it was but have been battling with it!).

 

I’ll look up that bit of kit as I use Macs too, thanks!

[Starlord]

Do you think the Scarlett Solo would do the same job as the Sonuus? Eager to fiddle with tech and the 3rd gen is under £100!

[Starlord]

1 hour ago, tauzero said:

Does the tutor software rely on MIDI?

Yes, it’s set to work with MIDI.

[BigRedX]

If the end result is trying to turn your playing into an accurate score, it might be worth looking at methods that process the recorded audio instead of trying  to do the conversion in real time.

[Starlord]

That’s a much easier idea! I’ll look into it although the software for the course only appears to mark live data but I’ll check it out

[Dad3353]

I use a Sonuus i2m for recording MIDI tracks into my Reaper DAW. I'm not worried by delay, as I can shift the resulting track to line up with whatever else is there. It wouldn't do for real-time synchronising, such as you seem to want to do. A 'standard' audio interface (Focusrite and the like...) should give much better results. Keep the i2m solely for MIDI conversion when synchro is not an issue; it does a pretty good job for that. Hope this helps. 

[Starlord]

1 minute ago, Dad3353 said:

I use a Sonuus i2m for recording MIDI tracks into my Reaper DAW. I'm not worried by delay, as I can shift the resulting track to line up with whatever else is there. It wouldn't do for real-time synchronising, such as you seem to want to do. A 'standard' audio interface (Focusrite and the like...) should give much better results. Keep the i2m solely for MIDI conversion when synchro is not an issue; it does a pretty good job for that. Hope this helps. 

Ok, that’s helpful, thank you. The i2m is a cracking bit of kit but learning to play with a delay isn’t great!

[BigRedX]

What course is this?

 

If the marks are reliant on real-time pitch to MIDI conversion, then the whole concept is flawed since there will be a delay in the processing and the delay will vary depending on both the pitch and the "cleanliness" of the note. 

 

Playing ahead of the beat to compensate is wrong too, since you shouldn't be altering how you play in order to satisfy the laws of physics.

[Starlord]

10 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

What course is this?

 

If the marks are reliant on real-time pitch to MIDI conversion, then the whole concept is flawed since there will be a delay in the processing and the delay will vary depending on both the pitch and the "cleanliness" of the note. 

 

Playing ahead of the beat to compensate is wrong too, since you shouldn't be altering how you play in order to satisfy the laws of physics.

It’s all hosted on the gigajamonline website, you sign up and learn all sorts of instruments and get awarded grade certificates, etc. You can record your playing and upload for the tutors to mark but they have software which is what I am using to auto upload your playing once it’s been graded by the software. It shows you the notes you need to play compared to the hat you actually played which is where the whole delay dilemma comes in!

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

... you shouldn't be altering how you play in order to satisfy the laws of physics.

 

Horn players have to anticipate their notes to compensate for the physics of air producing the sound. Most noticeable for the bassier stuff, such as tubas, sousaphones, bass trombones et el. 

[Starlord]

2 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

Horn players have to anticipate their notes to compensate for the physics of air producing the sound. Most noticeable for the bassier stuff, such as tubas, sousaphones, bass trombones et el. 

Stop it, my mind is melting learning the bass and then you go and mention other stuff, bah!

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, Starlord said:

Yes, it’s set to work with MIDI.

 

That (as others have said) is the problem. The audio interface side of it will be latency free but anything using MIDI will have a slight delay, which changing ASIO parameters won't alter.

[Bigwan]

6 hours ago, tauzero said:

The audio interface side of it will be latency free

To quote Rage Against the Machine "whoever told you that is your enemy". It absolutely will NOT be latency free, having tried the same interface on 4 different machines. It may, however, be better than the MIDI side..