Aria FEB with a doublebass radiused board.

[Matt P]

Subscribed, this is an interesting project, if the neck is totalled then have you thought about making a new more double bass like one as a replacement? that would allow you to alter the angle at the same time and give you the chance to get the profile to your liking.

 

Matt

[Maude]

27 minutes ago, Matt P said:

Subscribed, this is an interesting project, if the neck is totalled then have you thought about making a new more double bass like one as a replacement? that would allow you to alter the angle at the same time and give you the chance to get the profile to your liking.

 

Matt

Probably beyond me, or more importantly the tools I have I'm afraid. 

[Maude]

Well it's here. 😬

Opened the door to the courier holding a soggy tattered box. To be fair he said he had logged it with his supervisor before leaving, so if anything was water damaged then it would be covered. 

So I've bought an already damaged acoustic bass, that has now, judging by the filth all over it, been dragged around in its box to the point it's soaked up enough water that it's just falling apart in your hands, and is in such a state the delivery driver is genuinely apologetic. Can't see anything going wrong here. 😆

The first box pretty much fell off and the bass was inside a second, guitar box which also felt very damp, not wet but had lost all its integrity. I get the bass out fearing the worst and do you know what? It's alright. 😃

Inspection time. No real damage that I can see as such. A small chip in the top of the headstock that was listed, much bigger chips on the shoulder of the headstock that wasn't listed. The neck seems fine and the fingerboard I don't think is lifting. So better than expected. 

There are issues though. These aren't complaints as such as it's only a £250/£300 bass anyway. The finishing could be better, certain parts not shaped very well and everything feels dry and slightly rough. There's a little lip where the neck  and the heel are glued together, and other joints that could be tidier. This is nit picking and leads me to think that the gap between the fingerboard and body that was the main reason for the price reduction has always been there, and isn't from being dropped, or whatever. Just a bit more not perfect workmanship. It hasn't been smashed by G4M like some of their stuff but has been bought and returned. 

The actual issue with it is the buzzing on the board. The action is very low and while the E and A strings are fine, the D just starts to buzz a bit from around the 13th fret upwards, but not too bad. But the G stays on the same note from the 13th fret up to about the 16th/17th and then progresses as normal albeit buzzing like the D string. 

The board may have lifted there or was never glued down properly from factory. 

I've tuned it up and will let it sit overnight and inspect tomorrow as the wood is very cold from its journey so I'll let it settle. Maybe a little tweak of the trussrod will sort it, not that it needs it if I'm going to attack it. 

I was kind of hoping the board would be hanging off to 1, save me work and 2, ease my guilt over wrecking a decent instrument. 

[Andyjr1515]

OK - I'm paying attention.  This is getting real and exciting

So, the Aria FEB is this one?

I've just re-read the thread.  Just a thought - and do feel free to ignore it I've got the wrong end of the stick.  I've read your musings on getting the right kind of angle of the board to give you a floating overhang and I'm not convinced that there is enough wiggle room to get the board a steep enough angle with the sanding and building up approach (if I've understood those musings properly). The amount of thinning down and building up tends to be impractically high for any major change in angle. 

On the other hand, a small change of the angle at the heel can make a huge difference (think of how thin a shim needs to be on a bolt-on neck to correct the action if the bridge is over its adjustment range). 

Once you've got the board off, you should be able to see the neck joint...

Because all that got me thinking.  And I remembered that years and years ago - I bought a cello neck 

And to my surprise, I've just found it (MrsAndyjr1515 is, as you can imagine, delighted)

:

  

...and realised just how small that heel angle has to be (5.5 degrees)...

...to produce this effect at the overhang:

 

...and you might have access to that neck joint soon..... 

 

[Owen]

NOW it is getting interesting!

[Happy Jack]

OK, I'm off to the studio to see if I happen to have a cello neck that I bought years ago and forgot that I owned. Happens all the time ...

😂

[Maude]

27 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

OK, I'm off to the studio to see if I happen to have a cello neck that I bought years ago and forgot that I owned. Happens all the time ...

😂

I've lost count of the amount of cello necks I've bought without realising. 😆

[Maude]

1 hour ago, owen said:

NOW it is getting interesting!

It'll be even more interesting when I'm sat on the shed floor in tears surrounded by little broken bits of Aria. 😉

[Andyjr1515]

32 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

OK, I'm off to the studio to see if I happen to have a cello neck that I bought years ago and forgot that I owned. Happens all the time ...

😂

It's a long (and tedious) story... 

 

[Maude]

1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said:

OK - I'm paying attention.  This is getting real and exciting

So, the Aria FEB is this one?

I've just re-read the thread.  Just a thought - and do feel free to ignore it I've got the wrong end of the stick.  I've read your musings on getting the right kind of angle of the board to give you a floating overhang and I'm not convinced that there is enough wiggle room to get the board a steep enough angle with the sanding and building up approach (if I've understood those musings properly). The amount of thinning down and building up tends to be impractically high for any major change in angle. 

On the other hand, a small change of the angle at the heel can make a huge difference (think of how thin a shim needs to be on a bolt-on neck to correct the action if the bridge is over its adjustment range). 

Once you've got the board off, you should be able to see the neck joint...

Because all that got me thinking.  And I remembered that years and years ago - I bought a cello neck 

And to my surprise, I've just found it (MrsAndyjr1515 is, as you can imagine, delighted)

:

  

...and realised just how small that heel angle has to be (5.5 degrees)...

...to produce this effect at the overhang:

 

...and you might have access to that neck joint soon..... 

 

You are correct on all counts.

Yes the easiest way to achieve a steeper neck angle is to remove the neck, reshape and refit. The problem is me doing it without completely destroying the body. 

That's why I was hoping to manage something by just replacing the fingerboard and shaving the skinny end and packing out the fat end. But without a new board I can't tell, but you may well be (read probably are) right. 

How easy is it to remove the entire neck from the body of an acoustic usually? I'm happy to be refinishing this as the finish isn't great anyway. A bit of time sanding it and oiling would do it the world of good as the wood is quite nice. 

[Andyjr1515]

4 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

It's a long (and tedious) story... 

 

And you can see why MrsAndyjr1515 is always so angry!

[Andyjr1515]

2 minutes ago, Maude said:

You are correct on all counts.

Yes the easiest way to achieve a steeper neck angle is to remove the neck, reshape and refit. The problem is me doing it without completely destroying the body. 

That's why I was hoping to manage something by just replacing the fingerboard and shaving the skinny end and packing out the fat end. But without a new board I can't tell, but you may well be (read probably are) right. 

How easy is it to remove the entire neck from the body of an acoustic usually? I'm happy to be refinishing this as the finish isn't great anyway. A bit of time sanding it and oiling would do it the world of good as the wood is quite nice. 

You will be able to see when you take the fretboard off.  It really depends what kind of joint it is.

[Maude]

I'm going to let it acclimatise overnight and inspect a suspect joint. I think I'm worrying about nothing because I reckon the issues with the bass are just manufacturing issues rather than damage. 

Apart from the fingerboard having a tiny gap to the soundboard, the actual neck and heel are two pieces of wood and I can feel an edge along that join, I just want to see check if that changes with string tension to see if it's separating or just not a great joint. 

Then I need to mock up a raised bridge and tailpiece to see if the soundboard is happy with the change in directional forces. If it doesn't seem happy then I'll just repair and keep it as is. 

[Maude]

It's sat tuned to pitch overnight to let the wood acclimatise to indoor temperature and none of the suspect joints have moved, I think the little edge on some joints I can feel are just how they are, I'm reluctant to say bad build quality as wood moves and it's not an expensive instrument so I'd imagine the amount of hand finishing is kept to a minimum. The wood is actually very nice and with a bit more care in the finishing it could be very nice. Something I'll address if this madness works. 

Which brings me nicely to the next step. I made a bridge from some old laminate flooring and managed to fit the strings over it into the original bridge holes. I had to tape if firmly back to the bottom of the body as the extreme string angle behind the bridge wants to tip it forwards. The new bridge sat in front of the old one so I could see if the top could take the strain. The top is X braced and the X crosses in front of the original bridge so my new one was over the bracing. 

I tuned it to pitch slowly, repeatedly checking the top with a straight edge and it got to pitch with no distortion of the top. I let it sit for an hour and I can't see any movement at all. 

The strings are now off and checking again with a straight edge, there seems to be none, or very very little difference in the top whether under the tension of the high bridge or not. 

One very good observation is that it's much louder and has a nicer, deeper tone with the raised bridge, something that is true of doublebasses. I don't know know the physics but if you raise your action on a DB you get more volume and quite often a nicer tone. 

So it's now all systems go on removing the fingerboard. 🤞😬

Edited February 10, 2021 by Maude

[Maude]

Following the method I assume most folks use but well documented by @Andyjr1515, I've removed the fingerboard. I knocked out the nut and removed the plastic TRC. Then used Lady M's clothes iron to heat the board. I placed kitchen towel between the board and the iron to try and protect the iron from any oil residue but something black has leached out of the wood and through the kitchen towel. I have some iron cleaning to do once cooled as ironing a white shirt with black resin on the iron probably isn't going to end well. At worst I've got an iron for the shed and Lady M will have a shiny new one. 😁

As Andy always says it's a slow and steady process and he's not wrong. With time it is actually very easy, you just can't rush it. I started at the nut end as I could get a flat screwdriver between the trussrod and the board to lift the first section, the iron needed to be on there for about fifteen minutes before I could gently ease the board up. I then slid my steel rule in and removed the screwdriver. I left the iron on for about ten minutes in each area and then slid my steel rule down towards the body, bracing the body between my knees and the wiggling the steel rule back and forth in a kind alternatate left and right rowing action. 

At the body end I put some cardboard around the fingerboard to protect the plastic body binding from the heat, but I have annoyingly damaged the finish on the body. I tried to continue sliding the steel rule, albeit with a slight upward force on the leading edge to try not to dig into the finish, but I did. I managed to get it off the body just with a screwdriver inserted down the length. It wasn't bonded to the body wood anywhere near as firmly as the neck so I suspect this is why there was a tiny gap on one side. The damage to the finish isn't the end of the world as I'm going to do something with the finish anyway. 

 

Gently prised out the trussrod and this is the neck joint, this is the bit where I assume everything will quickly turn to firewood if get it wrong. 

@Andyjr1515, how likely is it that that this separatable without major trauma to the body?

That last picture shows the join line I mention early that feels sharp, but I think it's solid, it's the one between neck and heel. 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Maude

[Maude]

I assume, never a good start 😁, that that dovetail runs through to the back edge of the heel, and heat applied to the heel for long enough to penetrate will allow me to knock the neck/heel out towards the front using a block of wood and a mallet. First cutting through the finish with a razor along the joints so as to save the finish as much as possible, although it's so thin I'm not sure it'll need it. 

I can see inside through the f hole and it's not bolted from inside or anything. 

This is all madness BTW, three hours ago I had a lovely bass that just needed a touch of f fingerboard sanding or a trussrod tweak. Now what the hell have I got myself into? 😳😆

 

[Matt P]

this is definitely getting interesting, you might want to have a look at some of the youtube videos from twoodfrd, he has done quite a few neck resets and the videos are really good and pretty detailed, might give you a few pointers for successfully removing the neck in one piece

twoodfrd - YouTube

the martin neck reset video might be a good starting point Guitar repair: Martin Neck Reset - YouTube 

Matt

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Matt P
extra video link added

[Maude]

Cheers @Matt PP, I'll watch that later. 

I need to research the process of changing the neck angle first to make sure I can achieve it with my tools and skill level. I don't want to get the neck off only to have to refit it as is because I can't change the angle. 

[Andyjr1515]

First of all, congrats getting the fretboard off so well!

OK - there's sort of good news and bad news here.  The good news is that yes, it's a dovetail joint - so, unlike one video about Aria acoustics I've seen where it was dowelled and the guy had to saw it off - then yes, it's perfectly feasible to get the neck off. 

Worth having a look at the internet and the Stewmac site because you basically have to get steam into the joints to get heat into the glue and soften it just like with the fretboard.  Stewmac sell a surprisingly cheap steam 'hose and needle' for the job.  If MrsMaude has an old Prestige pressure cooker that can go into your workshop like the iron, that's ideal...but there are other ways of generating steam.  The good thing about a dovetail joint is that once you get it moving (when the glue is soft, you basically tap the bottom heel with a rubber mallet to 'crack' the joint), the tapered joint quickly lets go and the neck lifts out.

The bad news is...that it's a dovetail joint

Because cutting a new dovetail to match the angle and get a half decent joint isn't the easiest thing to do.

But you can turn a dovetail joint into a mortice and tenon joint...and that's a LOT easier.

I'll try and find some photos of my acoustic builds, where I have used both types, to show you the difference.

 

[Andyjr1515]

By the way, the 'heel block' will be glued to the neck but will usually form a continuation of the dovetail joint.  You steam-heat the dovetail and not the heelblock joint and so this will act just as if it had been a solid heel.  The sharp edged joint is just that they didn't sand it smooth before fitting the neck

 

[Maude]

1 minute ago, Andyjr1515 said:

By the way, the 'heel block' will be glued to the neck but will usually form a continuation of the dovetail joint.  You steam-heat the dovetail and not the heelblock joint and so this will act just as if it had been a solid heel.  The sharp edged joint is just that they didn't sand it smooth before fitting the neck

 

Thanks, that's as I suspected. 🙂👍

[Maude]

Thanks for the info Andy, it's always appreciated. 

Now thinking out loud here, and while no luthier or carpenter I'm pretty good at problem solving, but please feel free to tell me I'm an idiot if you want. 

Being a panel beater for over thirty years I'm very good with sandpaper and alignment/attention to detail, but I'm rubbish with a woodworking chisel. With the neck removed could the correct angle be sanded into shoulders of the neck, tapering from nothing taken off the front to the necessary amount off the rear to allow the neck to lay back, and then the dovetail part of the neck chamfered until it sits snuggly in but very fractionally proud, then glued and tapped home?

If turned into a mortice and tenon, wouldn't it need packing out either side of the tenon? And still need the taper sanded into the shoulders. 

I know my terminology is probably off but I hope you can see what I mean. 

 

Edit. With my sanding the dovetail I've realised it'll will probably also need packing at the lower rear of the joint as the neck lays back. 

I reckon something is achievable so I'll get the neck off and go from there. 😬

Edited February 10, 2021 by Maude

[Maude]

27 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Worth having a look at the internet and the Stewmac site because you basically have to get steam into the joints to get heat into the glue and soften it just like with the fretboard.  Stewmac sell a surprisingly cheap steam 'hose and needle' for the job.  If MrsMaude has an old Prestige pressure cooker that can go into your workshop like the iron, that's ideal...but there are other ways of generating steam. 

I feel a liitle side project coming on involving an old steam mop that's never used, some rubber hose and a football pump needle. 😁

[Andyjr1515]

13 minutes ago, Maude said:

I feel a liitle side project coming on involving an old steam mop that's never used, some rubber hose and a football pump needle. 😁

As they used to say for American Express..."That will do nicely, Sir"

[Andyjr1515]

28 minutes ago, Maude said:

I reckon something is achievable so I'll get the neck off and go from there

Absolutely.  Always the best policy - take one step and then re-assess

And yes - with some tweaks, what you say is perfectly feasible.  The tweaks are that there needs to be enough strength in the joint at the bottom (which is why the heel block is there) to prevent the bass 'clapping hands' when you string it up 

But you will be able to judge the best thing to do once it's off.