thodrik Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said: My Mpulse with an 8ohm cab at home i have the GAIN at approx 12 o'clock mid-point and Master Volume between 9 o'clock and 10 which i think is between 2-3 on a 0-10 scale. At rehearsals the master will be between 3-4 or 10 o'clock and 11. That drops by approx 1 when using my 4ohm cab. Must be a very quiet gig you were playing or the M6 is a lot louder than my Mpulse. Dave I don't think that the M6 is louder than any other Mesa 600 watt amp like an MPulse 600, however with the M6 I had, the master volume didn't have much of a gradual taper. It just went from 'off' to 'loud' immediately. It was like an old Marshall guitar amp! The M6 has a different type of input gain structure than the Mpulse heads like the Walkabout, Big Block or (I assume as I have not tried it) Mpulse 600. The Mpulse heads can generally go into gentle overdrive with the gain at 12 o'clock or over. The M6 only has one pre amp valve (compared to the 3-4 in an Mpulse head) and is designed for clean power, tonnes of headroom and a very fast response. You don't get any kind of overdrive on the M6 until pushing the gain past two o'clock settings, at which point there is no way of dialling in that tone at a polite volume because of the way that the master volume is structured. It will be tremendously loud. If you want a lot of valve warmth on the M6 I would suggest using a pedal rather than increasing the gain. The M6 sounds great with pedals. The driver stage of the M6 is also Mosfet based, rather than the Simulstate of the Mpulse line which involves (to my non-engineer brain) preamp valves being used in the driver stage. So basically the master volume on the M6 is delivering massive clean power. I sold mine because I really wanted a bit of pre amp grit and I really didn't need the clean power of the M6 as great as it was, so bought a Big Block. In many ways the M6 is a much superior and flexible amp, but I much prefer the natural 'grunt' of the Big Block which is hard to dial out (good thing I like it!) 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 On 09/10/2018 at 19:31, largo said: Let’s just say I no longer have the amp but still think it’s the best sounding amp I’ve ever owned. Just couldn’t tame the loudness! ... 55 minutes ago, thodrik said: ... In many ways the M6 is a much superior and flexible amp, but I much prefer the natural 'grunt' of the Big Block which is hard to dial out (good thing I like it!) So much love for the M6 on this thread, including from those who have moved theirs on. The risk of it being too 'loud' has never been an issue for me. I've just turned it down and am glad of the additional 'headroom' in my pocket should it ever be needed. @thodrik has hit the nail on the head when he says "the master volume didn't have much of a gradual taper. It just went from 'off' to 'loud' immediately. It was like an old Marshall guitar amp!" I agree. It seems to me the solution 'to tame the beast' is simply by making sure you've got the master volume set at the right level and not to worry that this might only be between 8 o'clock and 10 o'clock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oZZma Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 7 hours ago, pete.young said: Attenuators work on the post-power stage output, so they need to be between the amp output and the cab. Thanks. So I Imagine I'd have to use a speaker cable to the attenuator, and then another speaker cable to the cab, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oZZma Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Anyways I wonder why don't all-tube guitar amps have a built-in attenuator... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, oZZma said: Anyways I wonder why don't all-tube guitar amps have a built-in attenuator... Some do. Some amps have 50% switches which I believe include or exclude valves from the power amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, oZZma said: Thanks. So I Imagine I'd have to use a speaker cable to the attenuator, and then another speaker cable to the cab, right? That's right! How powerful is your guitar amp. I use a Marshall Power Brake with my 50W all-valve guitar amp. It is big and heavy and full of high-power resistors with massive heatsink and fan cooling for the components. The fan is only supposed to kick in when required (it's powered by the excess energy from the amp so no PSU needed) but I find more than 50% attenuation of any significantly distorted sounds will cause the fan to come on, and whole unit still gets as hot as the amp itself. Can you provide a link for the schematics of the unit you are intending to build and details of the amp you are planning to use it with? Edited March 1, 2019 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oZZma Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BigRedX said: That's right! How powerful is your guitar amp. I use a Marshall Power Brake with my 50W all-valve guitar amp. It is big and heavy and full of high-power resistors with massive heatsink and fan cooling for the components. The fan is only supposed to kick in when required (it's powered by the excess energy from the amp so no PSU needed) but I find more than 50% attenuation of any significantly distorted sounds will cause the fan to come on, and whole unit still gets as hot as the amp itself. Can you provide a link for the schematics of the unit you are intending to build and details of the amp you are planning to use it with? My amp is a 50 watt too! It's an Engl Screamer 50, the cab is 120 watt/16 ohm. I have found this schematic: https://guitar.com/guides/diy-workshop/diy-workshop-build-your-own-attenuator/ I don't really need the impedance switch because I'm not planning to use It with different cabs, so it could even be simpler... Edited March 1, 2019 by oZZma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oZZma Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 If I use a volume pedal in the effects loop instead, the pre-amp tubes will saturate but the power amp ones will not... What Will be the difference in sound? Will the lead channel be tighter, more punchy anyways? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 On 01/03/2019 at 18:54, oZZma said: My amp is a 50 watt too! It's an Engl Screamer 50, the cab is 120 watt/16 ohm. I have found this schematic: https://guitar.com/guides/diy-workshop/diy-workshop-build-your-own-attenuator/ I don't really need the impedance switch because I'm not planning to use It with different cabs, so it could even be simpler... While in theory that should work, I'd want to have all of the components specified at 100 Watt minimum - everything twice the output power of the amp. I's also make sure that the L-Pad is efficiently cooled either by a good heatsink or fan cooling. The Power Break gets pretty hot if It is doing a lot of attenuation over a long time. I'd also want to be 100% confident in my soldering skills. If you get anything wrong or any of the components fail you are potentially presenting your amp with either an open or short circuit, neither of which are good for the output stages of valve amps. On 01/03/2019 at 20:24, oZZma said: If I use a volume pedal in the effects loop instead, the pre-amp tubes will saturate but the power amp ones will not... What Will be the difference in sound? Will the lead channel be tighter, more punchy anyways? You'll just have to try it and see. It's a combination of a matter of taste and also how the amp is designed. The other thing to remember is that speaker break-up at high volume can be a significant contribution to the guitar sound, and unfortunately the only way you can get this is by driving your speakers hard. These days I'd either go for modelling or a very low power valve amp rather than having to rely on tricks like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oZZma Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 3 hours ago, BigRedX said: While in theory that should work, I'd want to have all of the components specified at 100 Watt minimum - everything twice the output power of the amp. I's also make sure that the L-Pad is efficiently cooled either by a good heatsink or fan cooling. The Power Break gets pretty hot if It is doing a lot of attenuation over a long time. I'd also want to be 100% confident in my soldering skills. If you get anything wrong or any of the components fail you are potentially presenting your amp with either an open or short circuit, neither of which are good for the output stages of valve amps. You'll just have to try it and see. It's a combination of a matter of taste and also how the amp is designed. The other thing to remember is that speaker break-up at high volume can be a significant contribution to the guitar sound, and unfortunately the only way you can get this is by driving your speakers hard. These days I'd either go for modelling or a very low power valve amp rather than having to rely on tricks like this. Thanks a lot! I'm aware of the risk of building the attenuator myself... In fact, I'm not convinced it's a good idea, even if I find the prices are insanely high for how simple these circuits are... Maybe a 50 watt tube amp was not the best choice, you're right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oZZma Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 I still have a couple of questions Is this problem (loose sound at low volume) common to ALL tube amps? I have put my eyes on a Mesa Boogie Studio pre-amp, I'm very tempted Anyone has any experience with it? If I couple it with a solid state power amp or a lower wattage tube power amp, would it sound tighter at low volume? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oZZma Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Screw Mesa and the attenuator, I just bought a Marshall JCM800 KERRY KING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Wireless connection. Play with the band but with the rig in the car park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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