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JimBobTTD

Importing a neck with an Indian rosewood fingerboard & CITES

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I've spent the last week trying to get hold of SOMEONE, ANYONE at 'CITES' to give me some clear guidance that I can give to you all. NOBODY will give me a straight answer to my questions, I keep getting passed from one person to another and the whole process is frankly a shambles

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What would you have expected from bureaucratic, uneducated and selfish people ?

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It’s not just rosewood, I had to apply for some kind of licence when I bought a Gibson sg from Texas, they said the dot markers on the neck were mother of pearl , even after proving they were synthetic I still got stung for the licence, about £100 .

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@ped - what was it you wanted to know? You might have better luck talking to Customs & Excise. If nothing else, they can point you to the right part of their incomprehensible website so you can find out what it is you need to know. 

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38 minutes ago, JimBobTTD said:

@ped - what was it you wanted to know? You might have better luck talking to Customs & Excise. If nothing else, they can point you to the right part of their incomprehensible website so you can find out what it is you need to know. 

Thanks! I might try them. Basically I want a simple FAQ that users here can read to help them when importing or exporting. They’ve apparently forwarded me to someone else now, so that’ll be fun. 

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Seems straightforward :facepalm:

 

 

-----

As from 04/02/2017, any item containing one of the newly listed CITES Appendix II (EU Annex B) rosewoods will require a CITES re-export permit to allow its legal movement out of the EU to say Switzerland, USA, Japan etc. Nothing is required for intra EU trade, i.e. sales to France, Germany, Holland, Poland etc. An import permit is required to allow a commercial movement from say USA to the UK, and to issue that, we would need the exporting non-EU country to issue the relevant export or re-export permit first.

 

It would be the responsibility of the importer to check with their Management Authority if an import permit is required before the movement takes place. The permits need to be authorised by border force officials, so the paperwork must be presented to them for authorisation (ours on leaving the UK, and by the importer, where required, on entry into their country). If this is not done, this is deemed to be an illegal re-export or import and the guitar may be seized by customs.

 

So basically from pre-convention stock of Annex B instruments currently held in the EU, nothing is required until the sale has happened, and if someone in Italy or France etc buys your instrument – no paperwork needed. If someone outside of the EU, say Japan or USA, buys it you will then need to apply to us for the re-export permit. Details of application process below.

 

Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra), should you have any instruments with this wood is, Appendix I, EU Annex A and requires pre-sales certificates (A10’s) prior to advertising for sale within the EU only so you would need to determine whether you advertise within the EU or internationally to determine whether you need an A10 or not. A re-export permit (as per Appendix B) for movements out of the EU would be needed if you only advertise for sale outside of the EU. A10’s do not apply for commercial use for Annex B, C or D. If you need further explanation of this, please re-enquire.

 

The link to the application form is https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/endangered-species-application-for-import-and-export-permit   

 

This link https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/321699/guid-fed0172.pdf takes you to the guidance on completion of (re)export and import applications. It is worth reading Guidance Note 1 alsohttps://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/355266/cites-gn1.pdf 

 

This linkhttp://ec.europa.eu/environment/cites/pdf/cop17/implementation_of_cites_cop17_listing_of_rosewood_clean.pdf  takes you to EU guidance on the listing of Rosewood species into CITES Appendix II

 

This link https://www.gov.uk/cites-imports-and-exports#application-process will help you on future applications and also has a link to the charges.

 

I also attach a direct link to our feeshttps://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/355264/cites-ag-ct-01.pdf  which explains the fees. Click on the relevant link for applications for animals or plants however a direct link is below:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/355265/cites-ag-ct-02.pdf

 

The charges for the applications are explained on our website http https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports#charges

 

It is worth reading through our guidance notes.

 

When you apply to us, you can post the application with a cheque (payable to APHA) or a postal order, or e-mail completed forms to [email protected] and pay by credit/debit card (following the links above) by calling 01633 631800.

 

I hope this helps

 

Yours sincerely

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Some more concise practical advice from CITES

----

Thank you for your e-mail. Apologies for taking so long to respond. I started to and then it slipped off the radar......

Instruments being imported from third countries outside of the EU, for commercial purposes, made from or containing Rosewood (Dalbergia spp) will require both (re)export and import permits, regardless of when they were manufactured.

However, if a transfer is for non-commercial purposes, where an instrument is carried with musician/owner and is under 10kg in weight, and is made of an Annex B/Appx II listed Rosewood, then no CITES permits are required.

This is a link to the full EU Guidance regarding the implementation of the recent new Rose wood listings

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/cites/pdf/cop17/implementation_of_cites_cop17_listing_of_rosewood_clean.pdf

Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra (DN) is in a different category and is tightly controlled. It has been listed on Appx I/Annex A since 1992 and instruments made from this species will require permits regardless of age. In addition the commercial use of all Annex A listed species require an additional document commonly known as an Article 10 to authorise the commercial use of the specimen. Instruments imported after 1992, would need documentary evidence but means on an endorsed EU import permit, to confirm the import is legal. Without this, getting the Article 10 certificate to authorise commercial use will be challenging.

As you own a website where sales take place you need to be aware that 'commercial use' in CITES terms, includes in the definition, 'advertising for sale'. This is a further link to EC CITES Regulation that sets out the activities which are prohibited until an Article 10 certificate has been issued. Article 8 (1) refers :

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:01997R0338-20170204&rid=1

Applications for instruments imported before listing in 1992, are assessed on a case by case basis and on their individual merits. The more detail about the origin of the specimen the better, for example serial numbers, date of manufacture, actual manufacturer.  It's not part of our role however to do research on behalf of applicants. The applications should be presented with all the necessary information to allow it to be processed.

I hope this helps explain the requirements.

Regards
 

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My reply:

 

Hi Mark

Thanks for the clarification.

So where does the seller find the forums/application pack to apply for a permit? Is the permit then sent to them to include in/on the parcel when sending? What happens if the seller is shipping a bass but they don’t know what it’s made of?

Does the processing of parcels with a permit cause a delay? What happens if the permit is lost? Do copies need to be placed anywhere in particular?

Thanks
Chris

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Thanks for this Chris, it will help a lot when all your questions will be answered.

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Well this is interesting - basically if it comes off the parcel, you're screwed:

 

CITES application forms and guidance can be found here :

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports

and here :

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports#forms

Please be aware that there is a processing fee :

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports#charges


It is our understanding that the permits should be attached to the outside of any parcels. But this is an area of work covered by the UK Border Force CITES Team based at Heathrow. They can be contacted here [email protected]

The onus is on the applicant or exporter to identify the species of wood in a specimen.

If a permit is lost in the post between us and the applicant, we will issue a new permit, but only after 2 weeks, as this is the amount of time allowed by Royal Mail for post to be considered lost.

If a permit is lost by a shipper after the export has taken place, the re-issue is problematic, as the Regulations only allow us to issue if a specimen is in the UK. If the specimen arrives in an importing country without valid documentation then it is likely to be seized by the border authorities, and falls under their jurisdiction.

Any importer should check with the CITES MA in their country, on that countries import requirements. All CITES documents should be in place before any arrangement to ship a specimen are made.

I hope this goes some way to explain the procedures. Please be aware though that the issue of a CITES document is not a formality and without sufficient background information we may not be able to issue a document.

Regards

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Although my involvement with CITES has been exporting Gillett basses, I wanted to contribute a couple of things that are relevant.

First off, you need to be aware that certain types of rosewood are more stringently controlled than others.  In fact, the Dalbergia genus (commonly referred to as 'rosewood') covered by the trade restrictions comprises 300 different species , and you need to know the species and origin of what you are importing or exporting in order to apply for a CITES permit.  (Rosewood of Brazilian origin is the most tightly controlled, as that's where the degree of endangerment is most acute.)

Secondly, the CITES regulations are global in scope but controlled by nominated managing agents in each individual country.  In the UK you have two options (see below - sorry about the formatting!).  I deal with APHA in Bristol, as they are just up the road, but they are extremely helpful on the phone.

Option 1.

Elaine Kendall
Head of CITES Policy team

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra)

Natural Environment Policy

Floor 2
Horizon House
Deanery Road,

BRISTOL BS1 5AH


Email: cites.ukma @ defra.gsi.gov.uk (For queries about CITES permits, please contact the Animal and Plant Health Agency at: wildlife.licensing @ apha.gsi.gov.uk; tel +44(0)117 372 3700. Full contact details are at (2) below.)

Website: http://www.gov.uk/cites-controls-import-and-export-of-protected-species

Last update: 23/02/17

Competent to grant permits / Competente para conceder permisos / Compétent pour délivrer les permis

Option 2.

Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA)

Centre for International Trade - Bristol

Floor 3
Horizon House
Deanery Road,

BRISTOL BS1 5AH


Tel: +44 (117) 372 37 00*

Fax: +44 (208) 415 25 10

Email: wildlife.licensing @ apha.gsi.gov.uk

Website: http://www.defra.gov.uk/ahvla-en/imports-exports/cites/

(Last update: 23/02/17)

 

Sorry if this is too much information - it took me a lot of time to research the subject and this is just a summary!

Scrumpymike

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Just thinking about  last night's post again with the benefit of hindsight (and less brain-fade - it was past my bed-time), I've got one correction and a couple of additions:

CORRECTION  What I said about needing to know the exact species of rosewood is probably misleading; if you know it's rosewood and have proof of origin, that's enough.  (The regulations are framed to include the names of all the different species so that the authorities can recognise rosewood under any other name.)

ADDITIONS  I can't stress enough how helpful APHA were in enabling me - a self-confessed newbie - to get to grips with the CITES stuff.  They gave me the 'idiot's guide' on the phone, e-mailed me the application form and other relevant info, and then talked me through by phone the bits of the form that I didn't understand.  They also summarised what our customer would need to do to ensure the import procedures went smoothly.  The cost of our permit was £59 btw.

If any of you are faced with the prospect of tackling CITES, I'll be happy to send you a copy of one of our completed application forms to give you an idea of what's involved (I'm pretty sure that the information required for importing will be similar).

Last but not least, if you've got a guitar (or anything else!) made of rosewood, maybe hang on to it - it's likely to become an appreciating asset; I recently spotted a Brazilian rosewood-bodied guitar up for £36-grand IIRC.  Makes our rosewood Contour S bass look like a bargain at £2200 (OK, I'll get me coat) :D

Scrumpymike

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On 3/2/2018 at 11:02, ped said:

Thanks! I might try them. Basically I want a simple FAQ that users here can read to help them when importing or exporting. They’ve apparently forwarded me to someone else now, so that’ll be fun. 

FWIW, there's a long running thread on TB with way more information on the US exporter's experience than most people here will probably want to know about: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/cites-what-every-bass-player-should-know.1072977/

I went through the whole drill last year when sending my '77 Travis Bean off to the Netherlands. The whole process took about three months, cost a few hundred dollars on my end (and some more on his as an importer), and was frankly a huge PITA. There are only a handful of inspection stations in all of the US and in my case it took about ten hours of driving and waiting to complete that phase. For many others it would be much worse, requiring at least an overnight stay or a roundtrip flight. My buyer put substantial money up front, had the patience of a saint, and cheerfully threw in a few hundred extra bucks to compensate me for the hassle. But all in all, he could've simply flown out here, picked up and hand carried the bass home, had a nice vacation, and ended up ahead of the game.

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