Major and Minor Scale Modes? and a host of others

[Cliff Burton]

Hey yall i'm trying to figure out what other modes there are in a major and a minor scale and there cariations
For Major I know the Mixolydian, Lydian and Ionian. For Minor 3 (can't remember the names atm) memory blank one being Dorian.
Also do the Harmonic minors have modes and other scales all have modes?
I'm trying to get a good scale to solo in for Metal/Prog rock. Could somebody recommend some?
Trying to remember the diminished scale atm. FAIL
If someone could either tab some scales out or give me the notes in an example scale in G C or G with Sharps and flats etc it would be grand or a link would be even more fantastic for referance.

[Toasted]

You can play any major or minor scale in any of the modes (1 Ionian, 2 Dorian, 3 Phrygian, 4 Lydian, 5 Mixolydian, 6 Aeolian, 7 Locrian).

[The Funk]

Get Dorian under your belt next. It's the most useful one (arguably).

[SteveK]

Not forgetting The Blues scale, which is possibly the most versatile of scales:
C Eb F Gb G Bb

You can think of it as a minor pentatonic with a b5 added.

This scale can be used over Major (especially Dominant 7) and Minor chords

As the name implies this scale is used extensively in Blues.

Try it over a 12 bar in C (C7 F7 G7)

Steve

BTW A Diminished scale is made up of alternate whole and half steps, ie. E Diminished = E F# G A Bb C C# D#

[DanOwens]

SteveK are you sure about suggesting he play a minor 3rd scale (blues pentatonic) over a major 3rd chord (C7)?

Also, isn't the alternating half-whole-step scale the octatonic scale? With the true diminished being stacked minor 3rds?

That's how I was taught it anyhow!

Dan

[Cernael]

[quote name='TheBrokenDoor' post='257353' date='Aug 7 2008, 05:26 PM']SteveK are you sure about suggesting he play a minor 3rd scale (blues pentatonic) over a major 3rd chord (C7)?

Also, isn't the alternating half-whole-step scale the octatonic scale? With the true diminished being stacked minor 3rds?

That's how I was taught it anyhow!

Dan[/quote]
Yeah, the min/maj 3rd clash is what makes it bluesy. Try bending it a semitone, into major...might I also remind you of the infamous Hendrix chord; in essence, an E7 (#9), though the #9 is enharmonic with the minor third...

And the half/whole scale (and it's only other mode, the whole/half scale) IS the diminished scale. It gets its name from the diminished CHORD, built from stacked min. thirds...which the scale in turn is built from.

[SteveK]

[quote]SteveK are you sure about suggesting he play a minor 3rd scale (blues pentatonic) over a major 3rd chord (C7)?[/quote]Absolutely...try it. Not only will you sound like Eric Clapton, but you'll also sound like some [i]good[/i] Blues players (if they were bass players of course)

[quote]Also, isn't the alternating half-whole-step scale the octatonic scale? With the true diminished being stacked minor 3rds?[/quote]What you describe (stacked minor thirds) would be a diminished seventh [i]arpeggio[/i].
The diminished [i]scale[/i] (whole/half steps) [i]can[/i] be called an octatonic scale, however, some pedants would argue that any 8 note scale could be called octatonic.

Steve

[jakenewmanbass]

Diminished scales are either whole tone half tone or half tone whole tone. Both work equally well and are also suitable for use with altered dominants as they contain flat and sharp 5ths & 9ths, sharp 4ths and flat 13ths
The diminished sound is most useful as a modulatory tool as the harmonic qualities it displays relate to four keys at once.

To answer the OP I think dlloyds' explanation is probably the easiest to understand as it introduces new information by step. Bitesize as it were. I personally teach the concept as a whole sound of one key and keep the boundaries (start and finish points) quite fluid allowing musical ideas to be a guiding principal, although this method really requires guidance from a tutor.

Edited August 7, 2008 by jakesbass

[Cliff Burton]

[quote name='SteveK' post='257010' date='Aug 7 2008, 10:34 AM']Not forgetting The Blues scale, which is possibly the most versatile of scales:
C Eb F Gb G Bb

You can think of it as a minor pentatonic with a b5 added.

This scale can be used over Major (especially Dominant 7) and Minor chords

As the name implies this scale is used extensively in Blues.

Try it over a 12 bar in C (C7 F7 G7)

Steve

BTW A Diminished scale is made up of alternate whole and half steps, ie. E Diminished = E F# G A Bb C C# D#[/quote]

Cheers man, shoulda said, I know my blues scale over two octaves. Are there any modes of the blues scale?

[Cliff Burton]

I hate to say it but TheBrokenDoor and SteveK, you guys need to dum that down slightly. Sorry
Cliff

[Cernael]

[quote name='Cliff Burton' post='257744' date='Aug 8 2008, 03:35 AM']Cheers man, shoulda said, I know my blues scale over two octaves. Are there any modes of the blues scale?[/quote]
Hm, debatable, I'd say. Of course you COULD play it from the six different notes in it, but my guess is that the lesser used five aren't really...useful.

You see, the blues scale (as you may know) is in essence a minor pentatonic (r b3 4 5 b7) with an added chromatic tone between the 4th and the 5th. And, if you're going to add a chomatic tone like that, there is by far the most logical place for it to be.

When it comes to pentatonic scales, however, there are actually two different sets of modes yoou could derive from them. One way is to take the minor penta, and start from the different notes of it, just like you did above with the regular modes. This gives the following formulas:
r b3 4 5 b7 (minor pentatonic)
r 2 3 5 6 (major pentatonic)
r 2 4 5 b7
r b3 4 b6 b7
r 2 4 5 6


The other way is to take the penta scale, focus on the scale degrees it contains, and take those through the different modes of the regular modes. So, take the minor penta, see that it consists of root, third, fourth, fifth, and seventh, and look those up in the different modes:
Lydian: r 3 #4 5 7
Ionian: r 3 4 5 7
Mixolydian: r 3 4 5 b7
Minor: r b3 4 5 b7 (This encompasses all three minor modes, as the notes that differentiate them (the second and sixth) are excluded from these scales.)
Locrian: r b3 4 b5 b7


From there, you might experiment with adding that bluesy sharp fourth/flat fifth to those of these scales that doesn't already have it, and make a note of which is works in. According to you, of course; it should be your ears that act as guide and final arbiter here. All we can do is point you in diverse directions.

Don't get lost

[phil_the_bassist]

ok, you've now made me pick up my bass to sacrifice my Friday bloody evening just so I can plunk my way thru this thread in the hope that it'll all fall nicely into place and I'll know WHAT THE HELL you're saying!!


it can't be THAT hard, can it?

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='256033' date='Aug 6 2008, 09:49 AM']I = Ionian (major scale)
ii = Dorian (Ionian b3 b7)
iii = Phrygian (Ionian b2 b3 b6 b7)
IV = Lydian (Ionian #4)
V = Mixolydian (Ionian b7)
vi = Aeolian (Ionian b3 b6 b7) (Natural minor)
vii = Locrian (Ionian b2 b3 b5 b6 b7)[/quote]


Ok, I've just run thru these, but several of 'em just sound kinda nasty...I'm going with the general idea that you start with the Major (or Ionian) scale, and for each mode listed, merely flatten or sharpen the required notes eg, in C Phrygian you'd be playing C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C and follow formula for each key?

Am I thinking this thru correctly? Bitchslap me if I'm on the wrong track here!

[GonzoBass]

[quote name='phil_the_bassist' post='258392' date='Aug 8 2008, 07:45 AM']ok, you've now made me pick up my bass to sacrifice my Friday bloody evening just so I can plunk my way thru this thread in the hope that it'll all fall nicely into place and I'll know WHAT THE HELL you're saying!![/quote]
Excellent!


[quote name='phil_the_bassist' post='258392' date='Aug 8 2008, 07:45 AM'] it can't be THAT hard, can it? [/quote]
No, not really if you just take it slow.
Especially with these great explanations.

[GonzoBass]

Correct phil!

These would sound a lot better (and make more sense) if played over the root chord of each mode,
but for now you could try moving them to E by starting each mode on the 7th fret of your A string
and playing each one over a ringing open E root note.

Notice each mode's "flavor"
and in turn each note's specific tension when played slow over the open E root.

(The "Spanish or "Egyptian" sound of the Phrygian Mode for example...)

[GonzoBass]

[quote name='Cliff Burton' post='257746' date='Aug 7 2008, 03:58 PM']I hate to say it but TheBrokenDoor and SteveK, you guys need to dum that down slightly. Sorry
Cliff[/quote]

Have a look here-
[url="http://www.visionmusic.com/lessons/bassmodes.html"]Modes for the Bass[/url]

The audio tracks might help you.
If you've got your bass handy,
try playing an eighth note C under each example to hear what they sound like over a root note.

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='GonzoBass' post='258418' date='Aug 8 2008, 07:21 PM']Correct phil!

These would sound a lot better (and make more sense) if played over the root chord of each mode,
but for now you could try moving them to E by starting each mode on the 7th fret of your A string
and playing each one over a ringing open E root note.[/quote]


That makes a lot more sense! Thanks for the confirmation, I think I've cracked it!

Cheers everyone!
:-D

[lonestar]

[quote name='TheBrokenDoor' post='257353' date='Aug 7 2008, 04:26 PM']SteveK are you sure about suggesting he play a minor 3rd scale (blues pentatonic) over a major 3rd chord (C7)?

Also, isn't the alternating half-whole-step scale the octatonic scale? With the true diminished being stacked minor 3rds?

That's how I was taught it anyhow!

Dan[/quote]


This sounds like another round of Mornington Crescent

[gilmour]

Can anyone reccomend a good book on modes, with some practice and exercises in it?

[Sibob]

Phil, also try working the modal patterns up through the scale that you're in, so if you're in the key of C Major for example:

Ionian starting from C
Dorian starting from D
Phrygian from E
Lydian from F
Mixolydian from G
Aeolian from A (C Major's relative Minor)
Locrian from B

it then resolves again on the C an octave higher.
This is of a course a very linear way of running the scales but gives it slightly more musical context than running all the patterns from the C note. It also helps us understand what notes and scales we're able to use whilst playing, so for example (in it's simplest form), if I'm in the key of C major, I know that I can build bass lines and solo using any of the from those modes starting on those degrees of the C major scale.
This also applies for when I'm playing in A minor, because it is the relative minor of C major, I can also build lines and solo using the C major modes.

Si

p.s.
I think my first point was already suggested by Gonzo, but if anyone is interested consider my post as a highlighter pen over his point lol

Edited August 28, 2008 by Sibob