Musician's Wars

[The Funk]

Are you telling me you [i]learnt[/i] to groove from reading and not from playing with/listening to other musicians and at times consciously working on it?

The point I was making is that Jeff Berlin is a twat for suggesting that groove is not important and that you should learn to read instead. It's not an either/or thing. Learning to groove/swing is f***ing important as a member of the rhythm section. To suggest it isn't is not just wrong - it's bad advice for music students.

[Doddy]

Jeff Berlin did not suggest that groove isn't important. In fact,he clearly states that it is! What he does say,is that teachers should teach musical information and not just tell their students that they should just play the groove,as that is the obvious role of the instrument.("Telling a musician to groove is like telling a swimmer not to drown")
Of course groove is important,but you don't need a teacher to teach you this.What a teacher should be teaching is information such as reading,harmony,notes and rhythm. That is basically what Jeff is saying.

[The Funk]

Thanks for your explanation. I must have misinterpreted what he was saying.

But it still sounds like he's being facetious. I doubt Victor Wooten and Steve Bailey tell their students simply to groove. I know that John Schofield stresses the importance of phrasing and does everything he can to demonstrate different ways of phrasing the same line. This is a very useful exercise.

The number of young musicians you see who can play all the right notes but just haven't developed their phrasing and can't groove and can't swing is frightening. If their teachers had spent some time tackling that aspect of their playing at the very beginning before racing ahead with their harmony and rhythm studies, then they shouldn't have that problem.

[Kiwi]

Everyone taking notes? "Chordal", "note orientated fashion", and lets not think about the Peavey Palaedium Jeff Berlin model that looks almost identical (and actually was a fantastic instrument even by today's standards)



Don't know about you but I'm getting the impression that his mouth is playing slightly ahead of his brain in this clip.

and to cut Jeff some slack, respect to him for having an admirable level of self awareness.

[i]"[b]Was your attitude and determination a product of your upbringing?[/b]

Yes. Both of my parents had tough upbringings. My father is a Holocaust survivor who twice escaped death sentences, and my mother endured her share of problems. As a result, much of their pain was passed on to me and my siblings. My problem was I couldn't relate to people--they were the enemy. I was uptight, angry, and competitive, and that came through in my playing and my attitude. Throughout the '70s and '80s, I paid a great price for lacking social skills; it cost me work, and it cost me friends. It wasn't until the '90s that I underwent intensive therapy to sort things out and make peace with myself and the rest of the world. I realize now that had I related better to people, my entire history might have been re-written. But that's 20/20 hindsight."[/i]

[url="http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/jeff-berlin/jan-98/5930"]http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/jeff-berlin/jan-98/5930[/url]

[ARGH]

I wouldnt change him for the world. He's an atypical brash New Yorker,and I love him for that,where I live they are the same...Straight up ,honest.....hard working people.

That piece you quoted from was lifted from a Bassplayer interview.

[ARGH]

[quote name='The Funk' post='248397' date='Jul 26 2008, 01:23 PM']Are you telling me you [i]learnt[/i] to groove from reading and not from playing with/listening to other musicians and at times consciously working on it?

The point I was making is that Jeff Berlin is a twat for suggesting that groove is not important and that you should learn to read instead. It's not an either/or thing. Learning to groove/swing is f***ing important as a member of the rhythm section. To suggest it isn't is not just wrong - it's bad advice for music students.[/quote]
Dunno,but I did wear out a few Sabbath records in my Teens.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='ARGH' post='248527' date='Jul 26 2008, 05:34 PM']I wouldnt change him for the world. He's an atypical brash New Yorker,and I love him for that,where I live they are the same...Straight up ,honest.....hard working people.[/quote]

Unless you're trying to buy some pain killers in a 5 and dime store when one of the cash registers breaks down and it takes 4 of the check out chicks to supervise the other one sorting it out, leading to queues out the door. And noone's prepared to speak out just in case someone else pulls a gun...

...and you can walk down any street and witness a homeless person screaming and lashing out at a traffic barrier to stop harrassing him, to the amusement of a nearby mounted cop.

And a sales person behind a counter in an electrical hardware shop refuses to sell anything to a clean cut, yet decidedly straight friend of mine because they "don't sell to faggots."

Yet you can buy some of the most amazing steaks anywhere on the planet and there is no end to a cocktail barmans inventiveness.

Nooo Yawk - its my favourite US city for the sheer variety alone.

[ARGH]

AND they have Carl Thompson.

[Jase]

Jeff sees through the nonsense.....simple!

[Bilbo]

I agree with some of what JB says but feel that his perspective lacks humility. His perspectives on bass playing are credible but, because his own playing is cold, doesn't always groove and lacks musicality, I have to approach his views with some scepticism. I WANT to like Berlin's playing and have several of his cds but I can't see them as anything but juggling and acrobatics. He has great technique and no idea what to do with it! His perspectives on time and groove playing start with assumptions about human beings that don't meet with my own life experiences so I haveto treat those views accordingly.

Has anyone heard his take on Norah Jones, John Lennon etc? He is SOOO missing the point of those pieces; adding noodling bass to a Jones hit and playing 'Imagine' without the lyrics is like adding a moustache to the Mona Lisa and watching the Aurora Borealis in the daytime! He lacks any critical sense. He has invested emotionally in an academic approach to his art and is hacked off at the fact that other succeed without it. The world isn't fair Jeff. Trying to get a hit by adding crass bass filigree to established hits is not going to get you anywhere. You need to move people and your playing and writing just doesn't do it.

Berlin says he gets a better response from a rock crowd because they are more open-minded. No, Jeff. You get a better response because that audience is impressed by fast playing and technique - they don't 'get it' any more than a jazz crowd. More to the point, most jazz audiences are just not impressed by the superficialities of your playing. Just write some beautiful music that doesn't feature what is essentially a naff bass sound and you may have a chance to be heard.

When I was starting out, I loved Jeff Berlin. But now I am a mature musician, I can see why I was enamoured of his motor skills but not his music - I still like 'Palewell Park', I still like the Bruford version of 'Joe Frazier' but, on hisown CDs, I am struggling to find anything other than athleticism.

Shame.

[Kiwi]

Bilbo thats one of the most interesting critiques of Jeff's playing that I've ever read. In some respects it sounds like you're painting him in a very ironic context.

[Bilbo]

No irony, Ck. I have come to see JB as the epitomy of what is/was wrong with Fusion (with a capital F). Complexity at the expense of humanity. There is little in Berlin's music or playing that is anything more than the evidencing of skills and competences.

To use a literary metaphor, it is like looking at a writer's CV and never reading one of his books!

JB is a craftsman who clearly wants to be an artist but in order to achieve this, he continues to work on his craft: "More technique, more technique, more knowledge, that'll do it, if I know more I will be better"!! You can read 1,000 books on roses but, until you have smelled one.... I really WANT him to do something beautiful but, so far, its all nuts and bolts.

[Kiwi]

Fair enough I guess but to play devils advocate, are you not painting him with your own prejudices against fusion when he's also branched into rock and jazz? I think your points about craft could probably stand on their own merits regardless of style.

[synaesthesia]

Frankly in terms of attitude, Anthony Jackson is probably worse. He insists of editing interviews, insisting on post interview insertions and pseudo intellectual langauge, his disdain is greater - he refuses to engage. Jeff Berlin on the other hand, makes time and goes out of his way to engage the 14 year old TAB stenographer. Larry Carlton was quite similar in attitude and approach, all were abrasive characters, except that Jeff Berlin is NYC Queens in your face abrasive. FWIW, he is honest to the core for all his abrasion. He walked out of Chick Corea's band because of the imposed Christian Scientist practices, whilst others would oblige for the gig. Sometimes in a business situation or to remain in a business situation you have to suck up to big time sycophancy, some people don't want to do that.

[Jase]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='248958' date='Jul 27 2008, 02:44 PM']No irony, Ck. I have come to see JB as the epitomy of what is/was wrong with Fusion (with a capital F). Complexity at the expense of humanity. There is little in Berlin's music or playing that is anything more than the evidencing of skills and competences.

To use a literary metaphor, it is like looking at a writer's CV and never reading one of his books!

JB is a craftsman who clearly wants to be an artist but in order to achieve this, he continues to work on his craft: "More technique, more technique, more knowledge, that'll do it, if I know more I will be better"!! You can read 1,000 books on roses but, until you have smelled one.... I really WANT him to do something beautiful but, so far, its all nuts and bolts.[/quote]


Fair enough Bilbo, but how can you expect Jeff....of all people to play something beautiful! I don't think he has that type of approach in him...when you consider things like Crepping Terror, etc.....jeff's always been like this in my eyes a super well educated virtuoso bass player, I agree technique all the way...but I stll like the chap Even says in one of his old vids..."Super technical approach."

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6at4jSG3cUc&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6at4jSG3cUc...feature=related[/url]

[ARGH]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='248992' date='Jul 27 2008, 04:51 PM']Frankly in terms of attitude, Anthony Jackson is probably worse. He insists of editing interviews, insisting on post interview insertions and pseudo intellectual langauge, his disdain is greater - he refuses to engage. Jeff Berlin on the other hand, makes time and goes out of his way to engage the 14 year old TAB stenographer. Larry Carlton was quite similar in attitude and approach, all were abrasive characters, except that Jeff Berlin is NYC Queens in your face abrasive. FWIW, he is honest to the core for all his abrasion. He walked out of Chick Corea's band because of the imposed Christian Scientist practices, whilst others would oblige for the gig. Sometimes in a business situation or to remain in a business situation you have to suck up to big time sycophancy, some people don't want to do that.[/quote]
Adds to my point earlier. Jackson has also had to deal with notorious New York Jazz snobbery,right on the bandstand in some cases,and thats REALLY harsh in the Big Apple,face to face,even being refused by x or y musician to work with him just because of his choice of instrument....even the number of strings (Will people GET OVER THAT as well),he has been dramatically misquoted,and had his points twisted by press and players alike.

Face it....to be honest this 'debate' of Berlin vs Bailey,is dead,it was sorted out a few years back,by both parties....,and to be franker everyones moved on,Victor Wooten is on Jeffs faculty at the players school and records duets/vids with Steve,the school is bigger and has more rooms (Ive a prospectus beside me right now) and is taking on more pupils,Jeff,unlike some actually makes a benchmark on what a good 'WORKING' player is,some may argue over taste,style,feel,etc etc,but thats subjective...Bailey teaches class's on technique,Jeff runs a school.

Move on.

Edited July 28, 2008 by ARGH

[Kiwi]

[quote name='ARGH' post='249320' date='Jul 28 2008, 08:10 AM'](Will people GET OVER THAT as well)[/quote]
Sure, if the criticism bothers you then just write and play something that will shut them up. If you can't walk the walk, don't talk the talk. In the meantime I think you should get over it. Most mature players learn to stay within their limitations and, like Amy Winehouse and her singing technique, they make the most of what they have. Limitations can add distinctiveness, just look at Jamerson and his hook.

But thats off-topic and the rest of the membership has probably had enough of your 9 string rants already I suspect.

I wonder if Jeff's problem is that he cares too much about what he does and loses perspective sometimes? I've seen the same thing happen in my own band with a certain individual.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='248977' date='Jul 27 2008, 04:15 PM']Fair enough I guess but to play devils advocate, are you not painting him with your own prejudices against fusion when he's also branched into rock and jazz? I think your points about craft could probably stand on their own merits regardless of style.[/quote]

You have to remember that I was a Jeff Berlin devotee in my yoof! I have transcriptions somewhere of some of his bass solos on 'Pump It' and Champions' (my own work) and used to pride myself on my ability to execute some of his solos in real-time. I think Berlin has kind of become a parody of himself. His sound has thinned out in order to allow him to play chordally but he has, as a result, lost a lot of what I liked about his early playing (I particularly love his work on Allan Holdsworth's 'Road Games'). His forays into rock and jazz (and country) are a little embarrasing - he clearly doesn't understand the genres in question and will never make a mark that way as he is not delivering anything with integrity. People (audiences) can see through that kind of superficiality very easily.

I want him to do something classy but he keeps delivering pompous self-indulgence. As I said, I want to like his stuff but don't. He is becoming a jack of no trades and master of none. His teaching methods are uncontentious - he is just doing what 1,000s of standard music teachers do. Teaching the dots and basic music theory. Where he irritates me is when he starts talking in absolutes.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='249403' date='Jul 28 2008, 09:58 AM']His teaching methods are uncontentious - he is just doing what 1,000s of standard music teachers do. Teaching the dots and basic music theory. Where he irritates me is when he starts talking in absolutes.[/quote]

I'm not sure that's particularly true of the electric guitar and electric bass guitar. What's got his goat is the fact that there are many teachers who teach via TAB, and 'ape my fingers' techniques. All power to those who need to do that, and all power to those who oppose it. I don't know that he talks in absolutes - he does say you are unlikely to be called into a studio session and be given a TAB sheet; I've worked sessions internationally since the mid 80s and I have never seen a TAB sheet in a pro studio situation. The only different system I've encountered is the Chinese pop music studio sessions in East Asia, there is an internal numerical system, not the roman numeral system, but it is not TAB.

[Bilbo]

That's not what I am talking about. I am refering to his stated position on things like metronomes and 'you can't teach groove playing' type stuff. Gary Burton, who I consider to be one of the most competent improvisers in jazz, does advocate for metronome usage and I personally believe you [i]can[/i] work with someone to enhance their groove playing. His thinking on some of these issues is concrete. I have exchanged correspondance with him on some of his views and his responses were astonishing (not offensive in any way but indicative of concrete thinking).

I have no doubt that he means well but I find his position on some things to be too inflexible and ill-argued. I do agree with him on TAB tho' - bl***y useless!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='249403' date='Jul 28 2008, 09:58 AM']I think Berlin has kind of become a parody of himself.[/quote]
OK, the $64,000 question is : do you think he's still developing as a player? (I think I can predict the answer)

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='249441' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:55 AM']OK, the $64,000 question is : do you think he's still developing as a player? (I think I can predict the answer)[/quote]

Probably - but that's not the issue. I think he is on a fool's errand! He is trying to create music that is marketable by building up a vocabulary using an instrumental voice that is not. His solo bass pieces (Imagine, Tears in Heaven) are difficult to execute but fundamentally bland and pointless (unilke his 'Dixie' which had humour and sophistication). He is putting the execution of each piece before its inherent qualities as a piece of music. Its a kind of 'look, I can play pretty ballads on the bass' without recognising that the performances aren't actually very pretty and that the beauty of the material he is using is in their lyrics and not their melodies.

In response to your point, I feel that he is getting better and better at doing the wrong thing!!

He needs a good producer.

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='248921' date='Jul 27 2008, 02:42 PM']Has anyone heard his take on Norah Jones, John Lennon etc? He is SOOO missing the point of those pieces; adding noodling bass to a Jones hit and playing 'Imagine' without the lyrics is like adding a moustache to the Mona Lisa and watching the Aurora Borealis in the daytime![/quote]

I'd argue in the Lennon example that he's half right; he's got rid of the lyrics - all he needs to do now is get rid of the music and we'd be on the road to a decent tune.

(Sorry John.)

This argument is silly and seems mostly comprised of people wilfully misunderstanding each other. Berlin draws a lot of criticism because he finds it difficult to accept that there are many ways to become excellent at the bass. The difference between saying 'Personally I don't use a metronome, or really see their value,' and 'If you have ever attended any school, any camp, any class, or studied with any teacher, and were taught that you have to groove, and used a metronome to play in time, or practiced contemporary tunes and paid your teachers for these lessons, then you've been F***KED because you haven’t been taught the important elements about what a good player needs to know' is huge.

For the record, I don't dislike his playing any more than I dislike the playing of Bailey, Wooten, Jaco, Sheehan, Willis, King, or 90% of people who are likely to appear on the cover of a bass magazine.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='249440' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:55 AM']That's not what I am talking about. I am refering to his stated position on things like metronomes and 'you can't teach groove playing' type stuff. Gary Burton, who I consider to be one of the most competent improvisers in jazz, does advocate for metronome usage and I personally believe you [i]can[/i] work with someone to enhance their groove playing. His thinking on some of these issues is concrete. I have exchanged correspondance with him on some of his views and his responses were astonishing (not offensive in any way but indicative of concrete thinking).

I have no doubt that he means well but I find his position on some things to be too inflexible and ill-argued. I do agree with him on TAB tho' - bl***y useless! [/quote]

Ill-argued is the correct description. If Wittgenstein was around, he would say it was a problem of language. Do you remember the "You can't practise without an instrument debate?"
The operative word "Practise" was largely misunderstood in the American context. If you think about music, it is not physical practise, sure the mental gestation may help you but the physical practise is not the same. I can imagine things I 'd like to play but I can't physically execute them. I don't believe Jeff Berlin is precise with language, but then the community his arguments are mainly put to aren't either. So what you have is chickens and ducks attempting to talk about how to be a better bird. It won't be long before I think I would probably stop reading bass player magazine. I find the forced and mannered street language from the editors rather imbecile.

re: other comments, Jeff Berlin is a great player and probably the one person you'd go to if you need to get a sub who can read ink spatter at short notice and cut it; but as a bandleader in the traditional old school jazz sense.... he is not ready. He is not in the same league as a composer, arranger, producer. God knows he needs an editor for what he types and says. I think the same applies for his solo records. In the old days, you'd take a while and worry about 'coming out' as a bandleader in your own right even if you have played for umpteen years with TommyDorsey/TitoPunete/MilesDavis/whomever... these days all you need is a computer and you are a 'solo artist', in all probability without a voice for music, as opposed to musical voice in bass, which Jeff Berlin certainly has.

Edited July 28, 2008 by synaesthesia

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='249456' date='Jul 28 2008, 11:15 AM']He is putting the execution of each piece before its inherent qualities as a piece of music. Its a kind of 'look, I can play pretty ballads on the bass' without recognising that the performances aren't actually very pretty and that the beauty of the material he is using is in their lyrics and not their melodies.[/quote]
This is endemic in the genre at the moment as far as I'm concerned he is not alone. I can't think of 1 'bass' album I would listen to twice. No music, just playing. I don't include bass players as composers/leaders in that, notable example of good stuff, eg Bass Desires Marc Johnson

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='249456' date='Jul 28 2008, 11:15 AM']He needs a good producer.[/quote]
So does Marcus Miller.... no wait.....
It's just business, they all want to capitalise on their 'name' and with companies willing to have a punt because they are, or have been, famous session dudes.

I'm being facetious, but being great players and sometimes producers does not mean they are automatically going to create works that wil live on. I don't blame them for earning a crust in a fad but I am just not into the whole 'bass on top' thing apart from in a few very particular compositionally appropriate circumstances.

Edited July 28, 2008 by jakesbass