flyfisher Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1391690323' post='2360177'] I'm really not sure what you're on about anymore. What's your point? [/quote] That we're probably doomed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391690353' post='2360178'] You're probably only looking at the details and not the big picture. Do you really think I'm suggesting the decline of human intelligence is down to H&S legislation? Think about it as a symptom rather than a cause. There are loads of other symptoms if you think about it. A topical one would be our prediliction for building on flood plains and then getting all upset when things get flooded, and that's before we even get into the whole climate change/unsustainability issues. What sort of intelligent species would behave like that? [/quote] I think it's you who needs to look at the big picture and get some more information before making sweeping judgements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391690487' post='2360179'] That we're probably doomed. [/quote] Dude, are you a bit of a social Darwinist? Do you believe that human survival depends on sifting humanity for high intelligence and adaptability and allow those who aren't to die off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1391693120' post='2360234'] Dude, are you a bit of a social Darwinist? Do you believe that human survival depends on sifting humanity for high intelligence and adaptability and allow those who aren't to die off? [/quote] Steady on, there; we risk descending into 'sweeping judgements' here, methinks..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Social Darwinism sounds like an oxymoron to me. The watchmaker is blind remember. Things just play out naturally. We're just watching a slow-motion car crash, we can't actually stop it. Anyway, it doesn't matter what I believe does it, it won't change anything, except in my own little bubble of course. Edited February 6, 2014 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391695820' post='2360286'] Social Darwinism sounds like an oxymoron to me. The watchmaker is blind remember. Things just play out naturally. We're just watching a slow-motion car crash, we can't actually stop it. Anyway, it doesn't matter what I believe does it, it won't change anything, except in my own little bubble of course. [/quote] What about countries that don't have our kind of H&S regs or implementation? You are arguing some fine points about specifics and yet your ToRs are extremely woolly, who is 'we' for instance? You also seem to include the whole of humanity in your arguments and then present evidence that is only really pertinent to the UK and Europe, possibly the USA. I have seen this often that people make judgements on the whole of humanity when really they are only talking about their own country or culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391689345' post='2360158'] What opinion - that human intelligence is declining? That's what the research is suggesting. An uncomfortable truth perhaps? And why does the Huff link not support my opinion? If humans are becoming less intelligent then surely they are more likely to do dumb things instead of living by their wits. Seems to me there's plenty of dumbing-down legislation to help people not having to think about things for themselves. But hey, none of this really matters because we're not going to change things are we? Just like that frog Times have indeed changed. [/quote] Sorry, but I think this has just now over-stepped the line marked 'faintly ridiculous'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 So why do we PAT test? [url="http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/6k-payout-musician-suffered-electric-shock-P-O/story-20618590-detail/story.html"]http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/6k-payout-musician-suffered-electric-shock-P-O/story-20618590-detail/story.html[/url] Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Do we know that that PAT testing hadn't been carried out? [i]An investigation found a faulty four-way adapter on the ship was responsible for the shock.[/i] [left] [i]Mr Zyntek has called for improved health and safety checks to ensure something like this does not occur again.[/i][/left] [left] Fair enough. Such adapters take a lot of abuse so perhaps they should be PAT tested every month? Or every week? Or before every performance? [i]She said Mr Zyntek was informed it was safe to use the equipment, even though a separate incident had happened the previous night when his manager was taken to hospital as a precaution after suffering a shock on the same stage[/i].[/left] [left] I'd be interested to know what testing was done after that incident and why everything was deemed to be safe for the following night. [i]A spokesman said: "This accident happened in 2012 and resulted in an immediate investigation. Action was taken to prevent it happening again by the installation of an extra circuit breaker."[/i][/left] [left] An 'extra' circuit breaker? If there was already one in place and it didn't work, why would an extra one make any difference. Anyway, wasn't the problem a faulty 4-way adapter?[/left] [left][color=#000000]The report begs more questions than it answers, but it seems like a good example of how you can't rely on PAT testing to ensure everything is safe.[/color][/left] Edited February 13, 2014 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1391646135' post='2359823']You mean back in the good ol days when a total dick who should know better puts a nail in a plug for a fuse[/quote] I've seen that done! It was ......... interesting Sat in a mates house & he'd just put his electric fire on before I arrived. After a while I could smell burning, looked around and the white plastic cover off the fire's plug was oozing down the wall, and a metal bolt was glowing red hot in place of the fuse He couldn't pull the plug out because there was nothing to hold onto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Anyone who thinks a 13A fuse instead of a bolt is going to save them from a nasty shock is, er, in for a nasty shock. I also find it hard to believe that a metal bolt could be glowing red hot while the consumer unit fuse had not blown or even the house wiring cabling to the socket had not burned through first. But these sort of anecdotal stories abound. Edited February 13, 2014 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392296698' post='2366888']I also find it hard to believe that a metal bolt could be glowing red hot while the consumer unit fuse had not blown or even the house wiring cabling to the socket had not burned through first. But these sort of anecdotal stories abound. [/quote] Not an anecdotal story - I was actually there, not a "I have a mate who knew someone who" - I saw it happen. Couldn't tell you why the fuse didn't blow. I think maybe you're splashing around a bit too much now in an effort to establish your case...................... erm ................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392296698' post='2366888'] Anyone who thinks a 13A fuse instead of a bolt is going to save them from a nasty shock is, er, in for a nasty shock. I also find it hard to believe that a metal bolt could be glowing red hot while the consumer unit fuse had not blown or even the house wiring cabling to the socket had not burned through first. But these sort of anecdotal stories abound. [/quote] Fuses help prevent fires not electrical shocks, although they can reduce the effect of a shock by breaking the circuit quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Yes, fuses are to prevent overloading of circuit components (mostly cables) and therefore overheating and therefore fires. No, they won't reduce the effect of a shock by any significant amount considering that 50mA can be fatal in some circumstances. Besides, the resistance of the human body is somewhere around 1400 ohms so even getting between the live and neutral conductors, you are only going to get about 160mA flowing through you, which isn't even going to trouble a 3A fuse never mind a 13A one. RCDs are the thing to help prevent electrical shock, not fuses. And even RCDs can't offer total protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392296698' post='2366888'] Anyone who thinks a 13A fuse instead of a bolt is going to save them from a nasty shock is, er, in for a nasty shock. I also find it hard to believe that a metal bolt could be glowing red hot while the consumer unit fuse had not blown or even the house wiring cabling to the socket had not burned through first. But these sort of anecdotal stories abound. [/quote] Depends what the metal bolt is made of. If its resistance is high enough it will act as a heater while the current is kept fairly low. A 30amp fuse in the main circuit could easily pass 60amps for several minutes without blowing. According to wikipedia Carbon steel has 10x the resistance of copper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 True, but we're only talking about a length of about 20mm and probably a cross-sectional area of about 10x that of the copper supplying the current and maybe about the same as the actual pins on the plug. Maybe if it was a rusty bolt with a poor electrical connection, but even then . . . .? Anyway, an electric fire will only pull a max of about 13A . . . Maybe the guy had half a dozen of them plugged in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392384873' post='2367996']Maybe the guy had half a dozen of them plugged in?[/quote] Far more likely you're not the expert you think you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392384873' post='2367996'] True, but we're only talking about a length of about 20mm and probably a cross-sectional area of about 10x that of the copper supplying the current and maybe about the same as the actual pins on the plug. Maybe if it was a rusty bolt with a poor electrical connection, but even then . . . .? Anyway, an electric fire will only pull a max of about 13A . . . Maybe the guy had half a dozen of them plugged in? [/quote] The story goes basically the same every time. Electrical fault. Fuse blows. Replace fuse. Circuit ok for a few days and then fuse blows again. Numpty changes fuse and the process repeats. Eventually numpty gets bored or runs out of fuses and can't see any obvious problem so replaces with 6mm bolt. Then house catches fire and numpty dies. Darwin is satisfied and the humans move up the evolutionary ladder another rung. Edited February 14, 2014 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1392385298' post='2368005'] Far more likely you're not the expert you think you are. [/quote] When did I claim to be an expert - I said I find it hard to believe, but at least I explained my reasoning. I can only go on the information you provided and "electric fire" is singular last time I checked and would not draw more than 13A would it? If the actual circumstances were different to what you described then all sorts of things are possible, but I'm not clairvoyant either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392395045' post='2368209'] When did I claim to be an expert - I said I find it hard to believe, but at least I explained my reasoning. I can only go on the information you provided and "electric fire" is singular last time I checked and would not draw more than 13A would it? If the actual circumstances were different to what you described then all sorts of things are possible, but I'm not clairvoyant either. [/quote] They way you write, implies knowledge of the subject, spouting pseudo tech talk. I don't appreciate having it implied I'm lying (twice) . Maybe you're not clairvoyant - but nor were you there - I was. FWIW - I was at a gig in Leeds once, where the balcony crowd surged and knocked a roadie off the edge, who was operating an approx 7 foot long follow-on spot which went over the edge too, with him still hanging onto it. The only thing holding him up was the mains flex plugged into the wall. He climbed back up, hauled the spot up after him and carried on - as had the band. How the flex held, the plug in the wall, or any other strain point I have no idea. But it happened with quite a lot of witnesses who saw it, including the band, the sound guy & the lights guy. Sh*t happens sometimes that can't be explained, get over it. Edited February 14, 2014 by Big_Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392395045' post='2368209'] When did I claim to be an expert - I said I find it hard to believe, but at least I explained my reasoning. I can only go on the information you provided and "electric fire" is singular last time I checked and would not draw more than 13A would it? If the actual circumstances were different to what you described then all sorts of things are possible, but I'm not clairvoyant either. [/quote] The problem is many people find it hard to believe until they've seen it happen. You don't have to be clairvoyant to realise that the elements on a fire can fail to a lower resistance that is high enough to draw a massive current. You just need to understand how the element is constructed and ohms law. Edited February 14, 2014 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1392395226' post='2368214'] They way you write, implies knowledge of the subject, spouting pseudo tech talk. I don't appreciate having it implied I'm lying (twice) . Maybe you're not clairvoyant - but nor were you there - I was. [/quote] OK, you were there and I still find it hard to believe. Wanting to understand stuff is how curiosity works. [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1392395226' post='2368214'] Sh*t happens sometimes that can't be explained, get over it. [/quote] Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean it can't be explained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1392396383' post='2368233'] The problem is many people find it hard to believe until they've seen it happen. You don't have to be clairvoyant to realise that the elements on a fire can fail to a lower resistance that is high enough to draw a massive current. You just need to understand how the element is constructed and ohms law. [/quote] Interesting suggestion. What sort of massive current do you estimate would be required to cause an M8 steel bolt to become red hot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392415852' post='2368645'] Interesting suggestion. What sort of massive current do you estimate would be required to cause an M8 steel bolt to become red hot? [/quote] Well an M6 would fit a 6mm fuse best. Let's say a 3kW fire chucks out say 3kW of heat. That's enough to boil a litre of water in about 3mins. When I've looked at elements on a fire they're usually glowing red hot. On a three bar fire that's about 4 amps per element. Let's say the fuse at the DB is a 16amp, that would quite happily run for a while at 25amps. So let's say 6kW through the bolt and the fire system combined. The cable would be melting through the sheath and the plastic of the plug probably on fire. Edited February 14, 2014 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 What about the volts drop across the bolt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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