PAT testing

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391625805' post='2359429']
...
Still, they are allowed to get away with it so who are the stupid ones?
[/quote]

More old people stuck in their ways and refusing to move with the times.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391625218' post='2359420']
My point is you're pretending you don't understand why it's done and you're deliberately trying to find excuses why it's a bad thing. Now you're likening it to being like a frog in a pressure cooker.

Another poster and myself have posted real world examples of dangerous occurrences that have been found or would have been found if checked by a competent person but incompetent people have been using in a dangerous state.

Surely you are either now just being obtuse for the sake if it or you really are daft!
[/quote]

Not at all. Of course I understand why it's done but my point is that people think it's the answer to everything so they don't have to think about such things for themselves and therefore become dumbed-down about such things. Testing the condition of a mains lead will, of course, help a little bit and will no doubt occasionally reveal a faulty or dangerous cable. Fine. Except that a gigging band, full of musicians who are, frankly, not exactly the most technically-savvy of people, are plugging these cable in, pulling them out, treading all over them and scrunching them into bags many times a week without a second thought - and why should they, because the cables are all PAT tested every year right?

It's a gradual dumbing-down of responsibility while the nanny state does everything for them and insists that they don't need to think for themselves in favour of using a 'competent person' instead. THAT's what I'm suggesting is the real problem with all this, not the PAT testing itself. But hey, having turned out a generation or two of people who can no longer even wire a plug (not that they need to of course because they're all moulded these days because no one would know what to do!) there's not a hope in hell of turning back the clock and teaching people to be resourceful and capable and responsible. [u]It's a bloody mains cable FFS[/u] We're creating a population of people who don't understand the importance of fitting the correct fuse and checking if it is damaged in anyway before they use it and we need a 'competent' person to do it for them. And a million other examples. Pah!

[TimR]

I think you're still missing the point.

There have always been people like that.

What about the 'technically competent' guy who removed the earth from our PA because it was causing an earth loop?

You don't do that by accident! It used to be a common thing to do, and I suspect some people still do it thinking it's fine to do.

[Guest bassman7755]

So how many people have been killed or injured by untested faulty electrical equipment at music venues so far ?.

[TimR]

Google 'musician electrocuted'. There's enough there to keep you going for a bit.

[KevB]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1391627685' post='2359456']
So how many people have been killed or injured by untested faulty electrical equipment at music venues so far ?.
[/quote]
I'd be very surprised if the stats even detail the test records of items involved in incidents.
The test tells you if there is a problem at the time you test it and that's it. It will only be foolproof if you test before you use the equipment [i]every single time[/i] and we all do that, right? If a fault occurs between tests you wouldn't know until the next test. Up to the individual to [s]completely guess[/s] assess the situation as to the likelyhood of a fault occurring and thus how often to test.

[Musky]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391620116' post='2359347']
For the next 364 days you expect a totally unqualified person to ensure the car stays in the same condition.
[/quote]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391620611' post='2359355']

I reckon this is how the human race will eventually end; drowned in regulations and nobody being able to do anything without training or sign-off by a 'competent person' and an associated insurance policy.
[/quote]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391626797' post='2359438']
It's a gradual dumbing-down of responsibility while the nanny state does everything for them and insists that they don't need to think for themselves in favour of using a 'competent person' instead. THAT's what I'm suggesting is the real problem with all this, not the PAT testing itself.
[/quote]

I'm getting very confused. The logic of you argument seems to suggest that more regulation is needed to prevent unqualified persons 'maintaining' their equipment, whilst simultaneously arguing that there is too much regulation.

Or are you saying that you [i]are[/i] responsible and competent and therefore don't need anyone else questioning your competency?

[flyfisher]

I'm suggesting that we fool ourselves into thinking we can't do anything ourselves unless we have a certificate of competence and that we need a 'competent person' to do it all for us - except, as KevB pointed out, that can only work if everything we touch is tested (by a 'competent' person) before we use it. Clearly, that is totally impractical so we have to rely on people to be aware of their own safety and be able to do all the simple stuff themselves - except we keep ramming home the 'competent person' thing all the time so people become brainwashed into not thinking about such things because they think someone else is responsible.

In my own lifetime, people have become deemed to be 'incompetent' at wiring a mains plug, driving a motorcycle without a CBT course, towing a trailer after passing their driving test, re-wiring their house, installing a wood burning stove, erect scaffolding, use a chainsaw and nowadays test their appliances . . . and I'm sure there are loads of other examples. It seems that the more technically advanced and better educated we become, the less we are trusted to be able to do things for ourselves. We're being told we're a nation of idiots who can't be trusted and, even worse, we're starting to believe it.

People are responsible for their own safety and it's about time we reinforced that rather than keep telling them otherwise, especially about trivial things.

Edited February 5, 2014 by flyfisher

[deepbass5]

We should keep this going as it may save a life because people are thinking about it.
How do you guys wrap up your wires - gently in nice loops or end over end then tie them in a knot? There is always someone in the band who doesn't give a sht. Cables cost money and they work harden pretty quick.
Extension lead sockets are crap these days and I have had some that do not work after a while due to being smacked about because the pin contacts inside are just push fit onto brass rods. It could be your amp plugged in the fourth socket down that just happens to have lost its earth connection.
Basically Look after your gear and it will look after you - buy a Martindale socket tester - and check every wall socket you plug into, and the extension leads you run just to see if the Live /neutral polarity is correct and you have an earth.
I have been too many venues with bad sockets and no earths, as well as different phases each side of the stage brought together with extension leads = PA on one phase back line amps on another = Lips tingling on the Mic whilst holding your Axe.
I got electrocuted on stage some years ago. The Band leader made up an extension board a row of metal clad sockets. After the gig I went to unplug the leads and one rubber plug top was missing the screw so as I pulled it the top came off leaving my index finger across the fuse. My other hand was holding the metal sockets and I couldn't let go. Checking gear as you pack it away and when setting up, can pick up these things, it has also taught me to switch off extensions before pulling other people plugs out.
Stay safe Guys

[flyfisher]

Now there's a [u]really[/u] 'competent person' right there - certificate or no certificate!

[seymourfluid]

I work in medical electronics as a field engineer, carry a Rigel 288 and work to IEC 60601 or IEC 62353 so do all my own gear. This is a far higher standard than a normal PAT test.

The last council gig we did, the “PAT Tester in Charge” refused to accept my tests as this was not a PAT test and regulations say…………………………………………………. Etc.

It took me ages to convince him he was a twat.

Edited February 5, 2014 by seymourfluid

[Musky]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391637429' post='2359713']
Now there's a [u]really[/u] 'competent person' right there - certificate or no certificate!
[/quote]
Sure. But the Band Leader wasn't.

Of course everyone should look after their own safety, and the safety of others. It's just that plenty of people don't know what is safe, including how to wire a plug even if they've done it dozens of times. It can be quite difficult to know what you don't know.

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1391627685' post='2359456']
So how many people have been killed or injured by untested faulty electrical equipment at music venues so far ?.
[/quote]

Back in 1972 I saw a lead singer die on stage at an open air gig. In1978 I was electrocuted when a fuse, replaced by section of six inch nail, didn't blow. It also trashed a lot of gear, bass guitars aren't designed to take 240 volts through their pickups! Care to guess why I'm passionate about the state of the electrics I use?

Steve

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391636547' post='2359698']
...

In my own lifetime, people have become deemed to be 'incompetent' at wiring a mains plug, driving a motorcycle without a CBT course, towing a trailer after passing their driving test, re-wiring their house, installing a wood burning stove, erect scaffolding, use a chainsaw and nowadays test their appliances . . . and I'm sure there are loads of other examples.

...
[/quote]

Again you're talking daily mail style nonsense.

For a start you can buy a mains plug in Maplins and fit it yourself. Absolutely no question.

I've used a chainsaw, I'm not aware of any legal requirement to have a chainsaw licence.

However, lots of people have been killed doing other things on that list because they've made their own flawed assumption on their own competence and what's worse is other people have died.

I only hope that you're not electrocuted when you unplug someone else's dodgy mains plug, or die in a house fire at your friends house because they rewired their house with 0.75mm2 because it was cheaper. But then that would be your own fault. Wouldn't it?

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1391639318' post='2359746']
It's just that plenty of people don't know what is safe, including how to wire a plug even if they've done it dozens of times. It can be quite difficult to know what you don't know.
[/quote]

I wonder how many people wiring pugs actually bother to cut and strip the wire back to the correct length and make sure that the cable grip actually grips the outer cable and not the inner ones? I know I'm paranoid but I always check a new plug against the diagram and I always get someone else to check as well. It's awful easy to get blase (every woodworker I know who's lost a finger did it doing something they'd done so many times that they got careless)

Steve

Steve

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391639877' post='2359752']

I've used a chainsaw, I'm not aware of any legal requirement to have a chainsaw licence.

[/quote]

Same situation, you can use it and take the risk but if you employ someone to use it then competency and PPE come into play real quick. Drop a tree on someone else and see how fast the lawyer's get involved.

Steve

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391626797' post='2359438']
Not at all. Of course I understand why it's done but my point is that people think it's the answer to everything so they don't have to think about such things for themselves and therefore become dumbed-down about such things. Testing the condition of a mains lead will, of course, help a little bit and will no doubt occasionally reveal a faulty or dangerous cable. Fine. Except that a gigging band, full of musicians who are, frankly, not exactly the most technically-savvy of people, are plugging these cable in, pulling them out, treading all over them and scrunching them into bags many times a week without a second thought - and why should they, because the cables are all PAT tested every year right?

It's a gradual dumbing-down of responsibility while the nanny state does everything for them and insists that they don't need to think for themselves in favour of using a 'competent person' instead. THAT's what I'm suggesting is the real problem with all this, not the PAT testing itself. But hey, having turned out a generation or two of people who can no longer even wire a plug (not that they need to of course because they're all moulded these days because no one would know what to do!) there's not a hope in hell of turning back the clock and teaching people to be resourceful and capable and responsible. [u]It's a bloody mains cable FFS[/u] We're creating a population of people who don't understand the importance of fitting the correct fuse and checking if it is damaged in anyway before they use it and we need a 'competent' person to do it for them. And a million other examples. Pah!
[/quote]

You mean back in the good ol days when a total dick who should know better puts a nail in a plug for a fuse, or sticks bare mains wires in the socket and keeps them there with matchsticks? Or a night club owner who locks fire exits? Fewer people die or get horribly injured at work now, and put the public in much less danger. And it's largely because of the Act and the supporting regulations, and the HSE. Or perhaps you'd like to be back in the days when things like the Bradford fire could easily happen.

[flyfisher]

And there's my point. There will always be total dicks and the only way to totally protect everyone is to gradually introduce more and more regulations and restrictions, which is what is happening and as each new raft of regulations is introduced it clears the way to look for more risks, which of course abound, and so it goes on.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/people-getting-dumber-human-intelligence-victoria-era_n_3293846.html

or the more amusing version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391650000' post='2359848']
And there's my point. There will always be total dicks and the only way to totally protect everyone is to gradually introduce more and more regulations and restrictions, which is what is happening and as each new raft of regulations is introduced it clears the way to look for more risks, which of course abound, and so it goes on.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/people-getting-dumber-human-intelligence-victoria-era_n_3293846.html

or the more amusing version:

...
[/quote]

Or maybe as the population increases and the materials (like lithium ion batteries) we use and the processes we carry out become more complex then so do the risks.

Maybe the real solution is to train everybody in the world up to the highest safety standards that we can.

I'm looking forward to picking up my Nuclear Power Station Handbook and also my one day course learning all about how to safely operate an oil rig. I've already ordered my book on 'fracking in your own back garden' from amazon just in case.

Edited February 6, 2014 by TimR

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391650000' post='2359848']
And there's my point. There will always be total dicks and the only way to totally protect everyone is to gradually introduce more and more regulations and restrictions, which is what is happening and as each new raft of regulations is introduced it clears the way to look for more risks, which of course abound, and so it goes on.

[url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/people-getting-dumber-human-intelligence-victoria-era_n_3293846.html"]http://www.huffingto..._n_3293846.html[/url]

or the more amusing version:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8[/media]
[/quote]

That's your opinion and not a fact though mate. And your Huff link does not support your opinion. Times have changed and emotional intelligence is valued more highly than IQ now, or so I've read.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1391677418' post='2359947']
That's your opinion and not a fact though mate. And your Huff link does not support your opinion. Times have changed and emotional intelligence is valued more highly than IQ now, or so I've read.
[/quote]
What opinion - that human intelligence is declining? That's what the research is suggesting. An uncomfortable truth perhaps?
And why does the Huff link not support my opinion? If humans are becoming less intelligent then surely they are more likely to do dumb things instead of living by their wits. Seems to me there's plenty of dumbing-down legislation to help people not having to think about things for themselves. But hey, none of this really matters because we're not going to change things are we? Just like that frog

Times have indeed changed.

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391689345' post='2360158']
What opinion - that human intelligence is declining? That's what the research is suggesting. An uncomfortable truth perhaps?
And why does the Huff link not support my opinion? If humans are becoming less intelligent then surely they are more likely to do dumb things instead of living by their wits. Seems to me there's plenty of dumbing-down legislation to help people not having to think about things for themselves. But hey, none of this really matters because we're not going to change things are we? Just like that frog

Times have indeed changed.
[/quote]

I think you need a large single malt and a think, mate. You are using a certain logic and coming up with completely skewed theory about declining human IQ levels and linking it to risk management. Personally I think you are just spoiling for a good argument but not coming up with anything sensible to argue about anymore.

BTW, H&S regs have not changed much over the preceding five or so years.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391671799' post='2359885']
Or maybe as the population increases and the materials (like lithium ion batteries) we use and the processes we carry out become more complex then so do the risks.

Maybe the real solution is to train everybody in the world up to the highest safety standards that we can.

I'm looking forward to picking up my Nuclear Power Station Handbook and also my one day course learning all about how to safely operate an oil rig. I've already ordered my book on 'fracking in your own back garden' from amazon just in case.
[/quote]

I hear your sarcasm but ironically you're supporting my contention about people being dumbed down. Yes, we're almost entirely dependent on technology for our very survival these days - in our current numbers anyway - and very few people actually understand how it all works. Sure, 6 year old kids can operate a smartphone but that's not the same as understand how stuff really works and we've all heard stories about how those same kids think that milk comes from a supermarket. Strip away our technological support and the vast majority of people wouldn't survive on their own for more than a few weeks.

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391689966' post='2360172']
I hear your sarcasm but ironically you're supporting my contention about people being dumbed down. Yes, we're almost entirely dependent on technology for our very survival these days - in our current numbers anyway - and very few people actually understand how it all works. Sure, 6 year old kids can operate a smartphone but that's not the same as understand how stuff really works and we've all heard stories about how those same kids think that milk comes from a supermarket. Strip away our technological support and the vast majority of people wouldn't survive on their own for more than a few weeks.
[/quote]

What do you define as 'technology'?

What are acceptable limits for knowledge of how stuff works? Do you know how your car works? Would you repair your own gas system? Would you advise others that they should be able to?

I'm really not sure what you're on about anymore. What's your point?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1391689782' post='2360169']
I think you need a large single malt and a think, mate. You are using a certain logic and coming up with completely skewed theory about declining human IQ levels and linking it to risk management. Personally I think you are just spoiling for a good argument but not coming up with anything sensible to argue about anymore.

BTW, H&S regs have not changed much over the preceding five or so years.
[/quote]

You're probably only looking at the details and not the big picture. Do you really think I'm suggesting the decline of human intelligence is down to H&S legislation? Think about it as a symptom rather than a cause. There are loads of other symptoms if you think about it. A topical one would be our prediliction for building on flood plains and then getting all upset when things get flooded, and that's before we even get into the whole climate change/unsustainability issues. What sort of intelligent species would behave like that?