Using Your Ear!

[philwood]

I have to get this off my chest….
I think with all the vast amounts of music theory we now have available to us as musicians, we have lost one of the most important aspects of music, using your ear!
Now don’t shoot me down in flames, I’m not disputing theory and I like to think I know my theory as well as the next guy, but unless you’ve heard it in your head I genuinely believe you shouldn’t play one note.
As Miles Davis said – ‘I’ll play it first and tell you what it was later’

I think what I’m trying to say is as much as its important to know what to be able play over a G7b13 chord, I also think it’s just as important, if not more so, to play what you hear in your head.
In all honestly and boasting aside, I could probably sing you an almost perfect solo over any Jazz standard and I wouldn’t have a clue of any harmonic devices that I’m using (I’m not saying you’d like my voice however!). That’s what I’m aiming for on my instrument!

[Bilbo]

I don't disagree with what you say but would suggest that reliance solely on either method is potentially problematic. The ear only works if the ear is educated, rather like the mouth I hear a lot of fledgling jazzers over-relying on pentatonics that 'nearly' fit. Their ear can't hear the detail in the harmonies so it lets them down. But, yes. You are fundamentally correct.

[unpluggedjack]

As someone who graduated from the "You hum it, I'll play it..." School of Music I can only agree. My father who was also a bass player only taught me one thing... "It's not what you play, It's the notes you leave out that's important...

[philwood]

I agree, which is why I'm saying theory etc is just as important, I'm not making preference to ear.
I just think that ear training has lost its importance in educational methods and is almost forgoten in most books / course ive come across. They guys I've met who were around in the 50's all say that alot of the learning was by copying and listening, rarely did they talk of theory. I think the ear is educated by listening to 'the language'.
These days we have the advantage of access to the vast amounts of theory available!

[Bilbo]

At the end of the day, all of the theory in the world won't make great music. 'Knowing' what notes you [i]can[/i] play won't tell you what notes you [i]should[/i] play; that is what makes you you and not a computer programme.

I remember discussing the study of comnposition with someone who had already studied it at university and he said that the teaching offers you techniques and processes you can use but, fundamentally, the ideas that define the composition were as elusive to him as they are to me. It is the same with theory. I know loads of stuff but making a great solo work is still hard.

[philwood]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1371630669' post='2116295']
It is the same with theory. I know loads of stuff but making a great solo work is still hard.
[/quote]

Absolutely, I'm the same!
I've found just taking simple melodies from a random starting note hard to do which has highlighted to me my absolute lack of a link between my ears and fingers.
In reality ive found myself realising "Who cares if I can play the altered scale if I cant even play flippin Row Row Row Your Boat" haha.

[danthevan]

I agree totally.
Recently had a holiday at Potters in Norfolk where they pride themselves on having one of the best theatre groups in the country.
All the musicians were session guys, reading what was in front of them and doing their own thing. Although there wasn't a bum note played, there was no 'togetherness' of the band, almost like they had never played together before or knew the songs.
The most obvious was an Abba tribute they had slapped together which was dire. Yes, they played the right notes in the right places, but there was just no feel to the songs. As mentioned above, was almost like someone had programmed the notes into a computer.

[tinyd]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1371628875' post='2116275']
I don't disagree with what you say but would suggest that reliance solely on either method is potentially problematic. The ear only works if the ear is educated, rather like the mouth
[/quote]

I agree with Bilbo's 'education' point above. Of course, some people's ears ears maybe don't need to be educated. But I find that knowing more theory gives me more insight into what I hear and what I play and this in turn suggests new things to try on the bass.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='philwood' timestamp='1371629405' post='2116281']
I agree, which is why I'm saying theory etc is just as important, I'm not making preference to ear.
I just think that ear training has lost its importance in educational methods and is almost forgoten in most books / course ive come across. They guys I've met who were around in the 50's all say that alot of the learning was by copying and listening, rarely did they talk of theory. I think the ear is educated by listening to 'the language'.
These days we have the advantage of access to the vast amounts of theory available!
[/quote]

Well learning purely by copying is a nice romantic idea but IME if you take say 100 people who try to learn purely this way you will probably get: 50 people who give up the instrument in frustration, 40 who never progress beyond the root-note-wonder phase, 9 who be become competent but unexciting players who can "jam along" to almost anything but struggle to play something they havn't heard someone do before and 1 great player. Of course some vanishingly small proportion of that 1% become world class players due to some freakish innate ability (e.g. Geddy Lee) and so perpetuate the fallacy that this is an effective sole learning methodology for the averagely talented player.

Its a phenomena statisticians call "survivorship bias":
[quote][b]Survivorship bias[/b] is the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_error"]logical error[/url] of concentrating on the people or things that "survived" some process and inadvertently overlooking those that didn't because of their lack of visibility. This can lead to false conclusions in several different ways.[/quote]

Someone well versed in theory but with an under developed ear will play a 3rd over a chord because hes learnt some rules that say hes allowed to play a 3rd but its essentially randomly selected from all the other notes the rules also tell him are "right".
The "learn by ear" play will play the same note because hes heard someone play that note over the same chord before and he knows it will give him a certain sound.
The player who is a rounded musician with both theory knowledge and developed ear has a certain sound in his head he wants to create, he knows that hes internally hearing is the general effect a 3rd creates, and his theory allows him to know where it is, he plays it safe in the knowledge that he will get the sound he hoped to create even though hes perhaps never played that particular note over that chord ever before.

I'm still working on achieving the latter and still have a very long way to go, one thing that helping is some structured ear training in addition to just copying/transcribing and there is plenty of material out there. It might be something for you check out.

[timmo]

I don`t really understand the playing by ear thing. Surely you need the basic theory to know what you are hearing? How would someone know what note is being played if they don`t know how to play a bass? How do you get to play by ear and know what notes to play?

[Coilte]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1371650446' post='2116617']
I don`t really understand the playing by ear thing. Surely you need the basic theory to know what you are hearing? How would someone know what note is being played if they don`t know how to play a bass? How do you get to play by ear and know what notes to play?
[/quote]

You dont have to be able to read and write in order to speak and communicate with people. A child learns to say "da da" and "ma ma" etc., long before it learns the alphabet. He does it by listening closely and then copying.

[philwood]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1371652692' post='2116640']
You dont have to be able to read and write in order to speak and communicate with people. A child learns to say "da da" and "ma ma" etc., long before it learns the alphabet. He does it by listening closely and then copying.
[/quote]

Gypsies learn music the same way and produce some astonishing players!

[xilddx]

Theory can't teach taste. I agree with the op. I can sing what I want to hear but I wish I could translate that very quickly to the fingerboard. That's why I am starting lessons soon - theory, reading, technique and all that will be to serve my ears and imagination and allow me to make music more efficiently. But taste is all down to me.

[xilddx]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1371650446' post='2116617']
I don`t really understand the playing by ear thing. Surely you need the basic theory to know what you are hearing? How would someone know what note is being played if they don`t know how to play a bass? How do you get to play by ear and know what notes to play?
[/quote] for me all the music I play and listen to is in my head as music. I can improvise to music without knowing what the notes are or what the scale is or the intervals. This is limited however as although I can hear the notes I want to play over the backing music, I can't always play those notes quickly enough. Now I'm taking lessons to learn what I need to do that. Music comes before theory. I can sing all my bass lines without knowing what the harmonic structure is, practice and knowing i can always hear them in my head means I can play them again and again.

Edited June 19, 2013 by xilddx

[timmo]

[i]I know that people can play by ear, but really my question is, how much do you need to know before you can play by ear.I assume no one can listen to a piece of music and pick up a bass,for the first time or any instrument and know what to play. Surely you must be able to know your way around the fret board and know exactly what the note sounds like,. For example, this song, someone will be able to know what notes the bass player is using, I haven`t a clue, but can you know the exact notes that are being played, or is it more of an interpretation. SO I guess playing by ear is down to experience, or a natural ability to just know? The didgereedoo finishes about 1 min in before the music proper starts. If someone knows the basic notes I will give it a go[/i]


[i][media]http://youtu.be/0mVvMopn2os[/media][/i]

Edited June 19, 2013 by timmo

[Coilte]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1371666259' post='2116830']
[i]I know that people can play by ear, but really my question is, how much do you need to know before you can play by ear.I assume no one can listen to a piece of music and pick up a bass,for the first time or any instrument and know what to play. Surely you must be able to know your way around the fret board and know exactly what the note sounds like[/i]
[/quote]

There is no doubt that knowing your fretboard and some theory is an asset when playing music. No one picks up a bass or any instrument for the first time and automatically knows what to play. Like I said earlier, playing by ear is a matter of listening closely and trying to copy. One of the first riffs I learned to play was "Sunshine of Your Love" by CREAM. I had no idea about any notes on the fretboard, or what the actual notes I was playing were. I simply kept searching the FB for the right notes, and after a while of trial and error and many playbacks ( plus a lot of patience) my ears and fingers were in agreement, and I nailed the riff. I used this method with lots of songs, and over time patterns began to emerge and it got a bit easier. Being an old dinosaur, I did not have much choice back then, as there was no Internet resources for instruction and very few teachers, even if I had the money to pay for one. In a way, I am glad I was forced to work things out for myself. This is why beginners are constantly advised not to be overly dependent on tabs as they impede the development of the ear. So, with this groundwork under my belt, things could only get better when I started learning the fretboard and some basic theory.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1371674430' post='2116924']
There is no doubt that knowing your fretboard and some theory is an asset when playing music. No one picks up a bass or any instrument for the first time and automatically knows what to play. Like I said earlier, playing by ear is a matter of listening closely and trying to copy. One of the first riffs I learned to play was "Sunshine of Your Love" by CREAM. I had no idea about any notes on the fretboard, or what the actual notes I was playing were. I simply kept searching the FB for the right notes, and after a while of trial and error and many playbacks ( plus a lot of patience) my ears and fingers were in agreement, and I nailed the riff. I used this method with lots of songs, and over time patterns began to emerge and it got a bit easier. Being an old dinosaur, I did not have much choice back then, as there was no Internet resources for instruction and very few teachers, even if I had the money to pay for one. In a way, I am glad I was forced to work things out for myself. This is why beginners are constantly advised not to be overly dependent on tabs as they impede the development of the ear. So, with this groundwork under my belt, things could only get better when I started learning the fretboard and some basic theory.
[/quote]

I was surprised to hear from Lawrence Cottle that transcribing includes learning by EAR, rather than what I'd assumed was listening and writing down notation. I've been transcribing by ear since I was 18. And it made perfect sense to me what LC was saying (although a weird revelation), you can't transcribe without having an ear! Of course you f*cking can't, why didn't I even realise that!

[ambient]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1371652692' post='2116640']
You dont have to be able to read and write in order to speak and communicate with people. A child learns to say "da da" and "ma ma" etc., long before it learns the alphabet. He does it by listening closely and then copying.
[/quote]

But the child learns what the words he's copying mean. You wouldn't get very far speaking words that you know know the meaning off.

I'm at music college, having a 'good ear' and a thorough knowledge of theory and harmony, and being able to sight read are given equal importance.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1371666259' post='2116830']
[i]I know that people can play by ear, but really my question is, how much do you need to know before you can play by ear.I assume no one can listen to a piece of music and pick up a bass,for the first time or any instrument and know what to play. Surely you must be able to know your way around the fret board and know exactly what the note sounds like,. For example, this song, someone will be able to know what notes the bass player is using, I haven`t a clue, but can you know the exact notes that are being played, or is it more of an interpretation. SO I guess playing by ear is down to experience, or a natural ability to just know? The didgereedoo finishes about 1 min in before the music proper starts. If someone knows the basic notes I will give it a go[/i]


[i][media]http://youtu.be/0mVvMopn2os[/media][/i]
[/quote]

Without access to a bass or any other instrument I can you that the main riff is root - flat 7th i.e. if the song was in the key of C the notes are C C Bb C. I can tell you that because I've learned what a root note and a flat -7th sound like. Anyone can learn this, it doesn't require any magical ability. Of course it helps that root - flat 7th is possibly the commonest bass riff on planet earth

Edited June 20, 2013 by bassman7755

[Coilte]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1371728567' post='2117399']
But the child learns what the words he's copying mean. You wouldn't get very far speaking words that you know know the meaning off.
[/quote]

In the comparison between speaking words to communicate and music/theory, I would equate knowing music theory with knowing that a certain word is a noun, pronoun, verb adjective etc., or being able to spell a given word. A child will know for example how to pronounce the word "cat" because he has heard others saying the word. He will aslo know that it represents a furry animal. However, he may not know how to spell the word or that it is a noun.

IMO this is similar to what I described earlier about my learning "Sunshine of Your Love". While I did not know the actual notes I was playing, I knew they were the correct way to play the riff, because my ear told me so.


BTW, I dont for one minute mean to say that playing by ear is better than knowing theory. The more tools you have to hand the easier and more enjoyable the "job" will be.

I was merely trying to explain what playing by ear was, to a person here in this thread who said they did not "get it".

Edited June 20, 2013 by Coilte

[Hector]

On the topic of playing by ear: I haven't had time to transcribe much in the last fortnight. I had a gig on Tuesday where I was really struggling to hear what I wanted to play clearly. Today, I had a gig where my soloing and walking lines came directly out of my head and through the bass with little effort and no 'conscious' thinking - almost as if playing by pure instinct or as if singing. This is the first time that has happened, and the feeling was indescribably wonderful. I expect I'll be chasing that for years to come.

What made the difference? Two hour transcribing on Wednesday evening. Really opens up the ears.....

[Coilte]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1371753170' post='2117799']
Today, I had a gig where my soloing and walking lines came directly out of my head and through the bass with little effort and no 'conscious' thinking - almost as if playing by pure instinct or as if singing. This is the first time that has happened, and the feeling was indescribably wonderful. I expect I'll be chasing that for years to come.
[/quote]

Great stuff !! This is what playing an instrument is all about.

[timmo]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1371734585' post='2117502']
Without access to a bass or any other instrument I can you that the main riff is root - flat 7th i.e. if the song was in the key of C the notes are C C Bb C. I can tell you that because I've learned what a root note and a flat -7th sound like. Anyone can learn this, it doesn't require any magical ability. Of course it helps that root - flat 7th is possibly the commonest bass riff on planet earth
[/quote]

Nice one.As soon as I find out what a root flat 7th, I will have a go. I have a lesson tomorrow so I will ask. Thanks

[Coilte]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1371759758' post='2117911']
As soon as I find out what a root flat 7th, I will have a go.
[/quote]

"Study Bass" is a great all round site. Here it explains intervals.

In the diagrams, if you put the cursor arrow over the note, it gives the sound of that note.


[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/intervals/"]http://www.studybass...sons/intervals/[/url]

Edited June 20, 2013 by Coilte

[funkgod]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1371759758' post='2117911']
Nice one.As soon as I find out what a root flat 7th, I will have a go. I have a lesson tomorrow so I will ask. Thanks
[/quote]

Play a Maj scale in say.. G ( dow ray me far so la te dow) then count as you play,
1 =dow
2 = ray
3 = me
ETC

count the 7th note ( te ) which is F#
then just flat it (ie go back a semi) which is F

The root is G the Maj flat 7 is F
its as simple as that

Hence blues [b][size=4][u]chord[/u][/size][/b] turn arounds being say 145 ie G=1 to C=4 (back to G) D=5 just easyer than saying 141541,
or say a 145 with a #5, = 1, 4,1,5, #5, 1. the #5 is just going a semi up from the 5 to Eflat

E.G. when you play say a rock n roll bass line in again G Maj while its right to play a 7th it sounds badd so we
nearly always use a flat 7th ie play the notes 1,3,5,6, flat7,6,5,3, repeat.

new you can ask for your £10 back cus now you know that

Edited June 20, 2013 by funkgod