Bit of a helpful hand?

[Finbar]

God, I never thought I'd do this, but here we go.

Thanks Ste ¬_¬ Also down to something Dood said about him downsizing everything and not needing the epic 'man rig' he had constructed for himself to get the power out of it, as modern gear has come on so much.

Here's the story. I own a Marshall VBA400 with a Marshall VBC412 cab. If I'm honest, this is a great great amp, but I just feel myself moving away from it. I could quite happily use it for years, but I'm on that never ending quest for madd tonez The plan was to sell a bunch of my basses, and my Marshall head and use the proceeds to buy a Hiwatt 200 head. I've already sold the basses, and it is a matter of time before the amp head goes really. But now it comes down to it, I'm questioning my judgement.

The Hiwatt has been like the object of my desires for a few years really. There is something iconic about it, and that all valve sound that I can't put out of my head. But now I come to think about it, I'm not sure if it is the right one or not. It WILL be heavy, it WILL be limited (even though what it does will undoubtedly be nice) and it may even be too loud. I know there's a lot out there, too much for me to get my head round, but can anyone offer some advice on this?

I guess I want the best of both worlds - valvey driven sounds, but with nice articulation. And that massive 'wall of sound' that a big valve amp pumps out, but without the weight. I'm sure that is everyone's dream really So basically if I decide against the Hiwatt, what options would be available to me, with the following (picky) criteria in mind...

- valve overdrive sound (preferably without having to pump the volume too high - I don't like drowning everyone out, just to get 'the' sound...)
- articulate sound, but not too hi-fi
- lightweight (or at least not too heavy!)
- up to around £1300/1400 (savings accrued for the Hiwatt)

I'd be prepared to go for head, or a rack pre/power setup, or consider anything really. I'd even sell the cab I have for a little more cash, and use those funds to do over the entire rig, head AND cab if something good is suggested. Infact, I'd be willing to look into this, as although I love the 412 cab, it is a heavy and cumbersome one! I know that the money I would be spending on this Hiwatt will be enough to buy me most amps, which is probably what made me have this mad panic.

If it helps to know what application I'll be using it in, then my band is www.myspace.com/maeslostempire - this was all recorded direct into a computer with no amps, so it isn't my ideal tone, but it should give you an idea of the band. It is a one guitar band, so I act almost as a rhythm guitar. Need a very 'full' sound to hold everything down with only one guitar. Also use a lot of effects, so something that copes well with that would be good. Mainly distortions. I've had/tried amps in the past that don't sit well with distortion, and that is important. It is why I go for valves - I've found they just 'like' distortion better. I play mostly with a pick, and tapping. Not really a slapper, and I play fingers about 30% of the time. I play a 7 string, so anything that will help to bring out the subtleties of the extended range would also be neat.

I guess what I'd want to be aiming at is something along the lines of Justin Chancellor's tone on 10,000 days or Lateralus. That kind of thing!

Hope that isn't too long winded o_O

Not urgent, but for a decision on something this big, I really want to get it right!

Edited May 31, 2008 by Finbar

[wateroftyne]

I may be biased ('scuse the pun), but your requirements are screaming 'MESA!' at me.

- valve overdrive sound (preferably without having to pump the volume too high - I don't like drowning everyone out, just to get 'the' sound...) - CHECK
- articulate sound, but not too hi-fi - CHECK
- lightweight (or at least not too heavy!) - CHECK
- up to around £1300/1400 (savings accrued for the Hiwatt) - CHECK

I've got the MPulse 600. It's fab. You might prefer the M6 Carbine (formerly the Fathom) or the Big Block... I dunno.

Just Chancellor uses them, apparently. Mind you, I'm not really 'down with the kids' so I have no idea who he is. I'm sure he's fab if he uses MESA though.

Edited May 31, 2008 by wateroftyne

[Finbar]

Hmm. The annoying thing about this kind of conjecture is that I can't get to try this stuff out. I'd LOVE to give a Mesa head a good thrashing, but it just isn't going to happen ¬_¬

Wouldn't mind giving some Ampegs a go either. Never really been convinced by the stuff I've heard before, but so many people get 'that' sound out of it, y'know?

[The Funk]

[quote name='Finbar' post='210369' date='Jun 1 2008, 02:01 AM']Wouldn't mind giving some Ampegs a go either.[/quote]

Someone has an Ampeg SVP-Pro preamp for sale at the moment. You could get that, match it with whatever power amp you like and a good, clean pair of 2x10s.

You could have the preamp overdrive at any volume. If you get a solid state power amp (likely seeing as there are no currently produced valve power amps), you wouldn't get any power amp overdrive. But that might help give you a more articulate sound.

Edited June 1, 2008 by The Funk

[alexclaber]

I'd look at the SWR Interstellar Overdrive, the Warwick Quadruplet or the DHA preamp with the same concept (power tube driving dummy load) plus a lightweight power amp (QSC PLX or PLX2 are a sound choice).

Alex

[wateroftyne]

What Alex said.

FWIW, most of the MESA stuff drives a dummy load to, as does the Warwick Tubepath.

[ped]

I would probably get the Mesa 400+ and be done with it!

[phatbass787]

From what you are saying i would most definitely look at the Ashdown Classic or ABM heads, great valve overdrive at any volume and being hybrid means you dont have to spend silly amounts revalving. I have used Ashdown for years and would reccomend their stuff highly.

Have a look at these;

[url="http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/37049"]http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/fl...roduct_id/37049[/url]

[url="http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/28204"]http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/fl...roduct_id/28204[/url]

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='ped' post='210473' date='Jun 1 2008, 12:42 PM']I would probably get the Mesa 400+ and be done with it![/quote]

Good point... just do it!

[Welshbassist]

Not a good thread for GAS at all...

[Lfalex v1.1]

I have an Ampeg SVP Pro. Can be great, and never sounds less than "musical" compared to some amps.
I had it partnered with a QSC PLX1202, bridged into a Trace 2x10 and 1x15.

It sounded excellent until the QSC packed up.

A good power amp will serve you well, no matter what you choose to partner it with, and you can pick one to match your requirements with regard to size, weight, power, features etc. (Sub 30hz filters are useful. Saves you caning your cabs with extreme LF and frees up power into frequencies you can actually use.)

You can unearth some really weird surprises with a power amp;

Zoot Chaser Custom (18v E-Pro) >>> Hartke VXL Bass attack (as a pre) >>> QSC PLX 1202 >>> SWR 2x10.

Tried at BassMerchant. Everyone just stopped dead and just said "That's amazing"
And it was!

Pre/Power really can give you the flexibility you're after.
At a price.

[Finbar]

Out of the stuff so far, I'm most interested by the Pre/Power setup suggestions. Seems the best way to get the optimum level of drive from the pre, and then deliver it at whatever volume is necessary using the power amp, I suppose.

I am a bit of a nub when it comes to all the ohmage issues and stuff though. Would I be correct in assuming that the QSC power amp which doesn't have the 2 ohm or bridging options would be suitable for me (I hope so, it's cheaper )? I'd only want to run it through one 4 ohm cab, using one channel of the QSC. Probably the PLX1104?

Hopefully some knowledgable chap can set me straight!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Finbar' post='210561' date='Jun 1 2008, 03:56 PM']Out of the stuff so far, I'm most interested by the Pre/Power setup suggestions. Seems the best way to get the optimum level of drive from the pre, and then deliver it at whatever volume is necessary using the power amp, I suppose.[/quote]

You can do that with many/most hybrid heads, though. The input gain controls how hard you drive the pre tubes, and the output level does... the obvious!

For the tubies tone possible though, you're best off going for a set-up which drives a dummy load prior to the power stage. You're not going to get that with many (any?) pre/power setup.

I think Eden do a tube-driven MOSFET power amp, but that's about it... I may be wrong, though.

[MythSte]

Aha, i do apologise finbar! I was only suggesting! ^_^

Anyway, id advise you checking out using only a tube pre before you dive in as it is a very different sound to an all tube head.

as for suggestions... ee eck! id personally shove the 4x12 and get a whole new rig. I think some modern 15's would suit you, maybe the markbass 2x15? that coupled with a mesa Mpulse... phwoar!

[Finbar]

The pre/power setup has one big advantage over the Mesa (or most other high-end hybrid stuff), and that is price!

I'm all for overhauling everything (I'm in that very spontaneous mood for a complete change), but it depends a lot on finding a new cab I like. If I go down the route of a head as similarly priced as the Hiwatt, then I *cannot* afford a new cab. Simple as that. I'm also very much into finding something possibly lightweight-ish, probably tweeterless (don't like 'em) and definitely no bigger than the 412. Single cab please ;p I think I could stretch to about 5/600 for a cab?

Edited June 1, 2008 by Finbar

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Finbar' post='210622' date='Jun 1 2008, 05:35 PM']The pre/power setup has one big advantage over the Mesa stuff, and that is price![/quote]
Don't I know it...!

See if you can track down a used Warwick Tubepath. They don't go for very much at all, for what they are.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='210599' date='Jun 1 2008, 05:11 PM']...For the tubiest tone possible though, you're best off going for a set-up which drives a dummy load prior to the power stage. You're not going to get that with many (any?) pre/power setup...[/quote]

I'd have thought that was mainly governed by the Pre side of the equation. Most Power amps aren't bass specific (pity!) or even musical instrument specifi
As such, they're unlikely to include any kind of valve drivers or similar.
There's certainly one Pre that I know to have (LOW) power tubes to drive its output via a buffer. The Warwick Quadruplet.
I have a sneaking feeling that the SWR Interstellar Overdrive does too, but I'd check to be sure.

Alternatively, when it comes to S/S pre amps, the world is your oyster.
I'd kill for a Trace SMX pre, and there's a raft of good stuff out there from many established bass amp manufacturers. After that, there's the mic/instrument pre amps from Joe Meek, Pre Sonus, Avalon, even.... Behringer(!)

With regard to the output impedance issues, it's common for the better PA amps (irrespective of topology and class) to run to 2 ohm per channel in stereo or 4 ohm bridged.
Bridging will yield [i]approximately[/i] twice the power into the same load as running in stereo or dual mono.

[Finbar]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='210667' date='Jun 1 2008, 06:34 PM']With regard to the output impedance issues, it's common for the better PA amps (irrespective of topology and class) to run to 2 ohm per channel in stereo or 4 ohm bridged.
Bridging will yield [i]approximately[/i] twice the power into the same load as running in stereo or dual mono.[/quote]

Lol, I wish that made my understanding of my choices easier! It seems that those QSC ones will run 2, 4 or 8 ohms in stereo? So it doesn't really matter what cab I'd be running it through?

I think the interesting thing for me is also the mix and match approach you can take with the pre/power setup. I've done a fair bit of research into it today, with different brands etc, and it is definitely a possibility.

[Lfalex v1.1]

Further to the impedance issue, the usual quoted specification is MINIMUM impedance.
The figure given is the lowest impedance the amp can deal with. If, for example, it's stated as 2 ohms, it will adequately cope with 4 or 8 (or anything in between). The power output will reduce accordingly as the impedance rises.
Yes, most QSCs will run down to 2 ohms per channel in stereo. Generally (again!) when bridging, the amp will only cope with TWICE its rated stereo minimum impedance. Thus, an amp that is rated at 2ohms minimum in stereo will rise to 4 ohms in bridged operation. Remember that you get about twice the power, though.
Many amps have all the specs printed on the back, just like cabs do.

Don't think that power is everything, though. there's a lot to be said about frequency response, cabinet volume/driver/system efficiency and even where you position cabinets relative to the room boundaries (not to mention how you stack them!) when it comes to perceived volume levels!

If your interested, search for posts containing; Efficiency, Hoffman's Iron Law, Cabinet positioning.
Look out for posts from Alex Claber and Bill Fitzmaurice in particular. Whilst not all of us agree on some topics, these two gents are well informed when it comes to such things!!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='210667' date='Jun 1 2008, 06:34 PM']I'd have thought that was mainly governed by the Pre side of the equation. Most Power amps aren't bass specific (pity!) or even musical instrument specifi
As such, they're unlikely to include any kind of valve drivers or similar.
There's certainly one Pre that I know to have (LOW) power tubes to drive its output via a buffer. The Warwick Quadruplet.[/quote]

I'm sure the big Eden power amp has a tube front-end, which drives a dummy load prior to the power stage.