Function band vs integrity ramblings

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='Huggy and the Bears' post='215391' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:58 PM']In terms of true art, if we look back in history at the periods of great artists (particularly the Impressionists and Renaisance painters period), great debates (similar to this) were held (in coffee houses at the time) that were sometimes controversial, sometimes not. I think it is interesting to observe people's behaviour and I am pleased to be part of such a discussion.

Also, it is not a crime to be intellectual - and you don't need a PHd behave intellectually.[/quote]

Agree with you entirely.

[Bilbo]

There is intelligence and there is wisdom.

My brother has written two books and has all sorts of letters after his name yet he is one of the most closed minded, concrete thinking numpties I have ever met. I have met MANY people who have natural wisdom, people who have what is sometime referred to as 'an old soul'. I know who I would rather commune with.

[Huggy and the Bears]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='215395' date='Jun 9 2008, 01:07 PM']There is intelligence and there is wisdom.

My brother has written two books and has all sorts of letters after his name yet he is one of the most closed minded, concrete thinking numpties I have ever met. I have met MANY people who have natural wisdom, people who have what is sometime referred to as 'an old soul'. I know who I would rather commune with.[/quote]

That is quite an accurate perception and I agree with you. I work with many Academics that sound similar to your brother in that they are almost not able to be open minded about others' views. I too know who I would rather spend time with!

[Wooks]

I think playing in a function band could only be a good thing, cos you never know who might be in the audience! You could be playing a gig and there might be someone of note who is looking for a good bass player to fill a void left behind, and then your world could become your lobster as they say

[chris_b]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='215220' date='Jun 9 2008, 08:56 AM']....Did two gigs this weekend - one was to a yacht club function. 250 people all eating drinking and being merry. They loved it; some singing along, some dancing, lots of applause. But, yes, you guessed it, the music was dross. Didn't swing, didn't groove, weak players, dreadful sound (massive warehouse type room - think Stafford Bingley Hall but smaller). Earned £100 - hated every minute except the breaks....[/quote]
This is why you don't have any integrity and why I believe your opinion on the integrity of others is irrelevant.

You took a gig you knew you were going to hate. You were disparaging about the audience, the venue, the other musicians and the numbers you played. You probably smiled at everyone while you were despising them and I bet you didn't refuse to take the money! Yet you seem to think you have integrity!!

With such a vitriolic attitude towards other players, it beats me why you want to play a musical instrument at all!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215260' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:11 AM']Then you have missed the point entirely. When you decide that you're going to pick one gig over another for financial reasons, despite the other being more artistically satisfying, then you cannot claim to have artistic integrity.[/quote]

I think definition should come into the fray here as the tone suggests that the artist with integrity somehow has more dignity and worth than all the others.
It's difficult to see that you mean anything other than to gently condescend to the people with whom you are holding this discussion and that is where it arrives at a problem for me.
I find it hard to accept you as the sole arbiter of human integrity which sucks a little of the value out of your assertions.
I agree with many of the principals that you raise for discussion but I find it hard to get beyond your slightly high minded tone.
If you are talking straight principals with no value judgement then my error, if not I think you should possibly widen the possibilities of your defined terms.

[Happy Jack]

I like to play bass.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='215685' date='Jun 9 2008, 08:31 PM']I think definition should come into the fray here as the tone suggests that the artist with integrity somehow has more dignity and worth than all the others.
It's difficult to see that you mean anything other than to gently condescend to the people with whom you are holding this discussion and that is where it arrives at a problem for me.[/quote]

It's difficult to discuss things like this - especially arguing for the side I chose - without coming off a little high-brow or aloof or condescending. I agree though my tone was a bit off in that post and it was unintentional. I don't want to patronise anybody here, intentionally or otherwise.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='215685' date='Jun 9 2008, 08:31 PM']I find it hard to accept you as the sole arbiter of human integrity which sucks a little of the value out of your assertions.
I agree with many of the principals that you raise for discussion but I find it hard to get beyond your slightly high minded tone.
If you are talking straight principals with no value judgement then my error, if not I think you should possibly widen the possibilities of your defined terms.[/quote]

I think I am satisfied with my earlier assertion that we are indeed discussing two different characteristics: Professional integrity and artistic integrity. Both are admirable qualities, but they are quite distinct. Perhaps the dividing line is blurry when discussing professional musicians. For example: Are concert musicians who are not soloists performing as artists, given that they are not required to be creative?

Is a symphony orchestra reciting Mussorgsky any different to a function band playing Mustang Sally? Is there any distinction between a band that writes a setlist of covers that they think will please the audience and a band that does requests?

Professional integrity is synonymous with honesty in commercial endeavours, and has its own merits. For me, the term "artistic integrity" is again a type of honesty but more of a self-honesty - it describes a quality which explains why an artist would not compromise their own beliefs in return for money, fame or any other benefit. True artists use their considerable skills to outline their own beliefs, to persuade, to further their own cause or those of others that they believe in. I consider people like George Orwell or Stanislavski or Arthur Miller to be the embodiment of artistic integrity. I don't expect anyone else to live up to those standards, but those are the standards to strive for.

Given the nature of the original post in this thread I think my assumption that we are discussing artistic integrity was pretty much on the money. We've got a bassist who's hitting forty, he wants to be out there and performing, he sees an opportunity to do a cover band but there's that pang of guilt about it. This is someone struggling with his integrity as an artist. And whichever way he goes I think it's good that he's concerned about it. We can't all change the world, but anyone who ever recognised an artistic talent and the persuasive power of it no doubt hoped to be able to do exactly that in some way.

In summary: I think anyone who can play Lady In Red without retching shouldn't be allowed to own musical instruments but maybe that's just me. Imagine a world in which Chris de Burgh isn't allowed to own musical instruments. That would be a better world.

Edited June 9, 2008 by thisnameistaken

[Paul Cooke]

I love "Lady in Red"...

[thisnameistaken]

No you don't.

[crez5150]

Any one who can rhyme 'Dance' and 'Romance' in a Verse and get a way with it is alright in my book!

[poptart]

[quote name='Wooks' post='215402' date='Jun 9 2008, 01:15 PM']I think playing in a function band could only be a good thing, cos you never know who might be in the audience! You could be playing a gig and there might be someone of note who is looking for a good bass player to fill a void left behind, and then your world could become your lobster as they say [/quote]

During a chat with Paul Turner (yes The Paul Turner) it turns out that he got his first big break playing with Take That in the 90's because the management saw him playing with a function band at an event and offered him the gig. Not a bad move, after all where is Paul now - well I guess you know the answer to that........

Mark

Edited June 9, 2008 by poptart

[crez5150]

According to gossiplist.com, Chris De Burgh, famed for the hit song "The Lady in Red," was once banned from a whorehouse - for being too freaky.

Edited June 9, 2008 by crez5150

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='poptart' post='215785' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:15 PM']During a chat with Paul Turner (yes The Paul Turner) it turns out that he got his first big break playing with Take That in the 90's because the management saw him playing with a function band at an event and offered him the gig. Not a bad move, after all where us Paul now - well I guess you know the answer to that........[/quote]

I suppose playing with Jamiroquai these days isn't too much different to playing with Take That. Banging out the old Zender tunes is probably fun for a while, but I bet that's more than off-set by having to put up with a tosser like Jay Kay on a daily basis.

[poptart]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215789' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:24 PM']I suppose playing with Jamiroquai these days isn't too much different to playing with Take That. Banging out the old Zender tunes is probably fun for a while, but I bet that's more than off-set by having to put up with a tosser like Jay Kay on a daily basis.[/quote]

Hey I am not disagreeing with you, but I bet Paul can pay his mortgage and then some from these 'Super Function band gigs" eg Eurythmics (sp) etc.

Mark

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='poptart' post='215802' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:44 PM']Hey I am not disagreeing with you, but I bet Paul can pay his mortgage and then some from these 'Super Function band gigs" eg Eurythmics (sp) etc.[/quote]

Yeah I bet he can. Is it in any way related to a discussion of artistic integrity though? Regardless of how creative he gets to be with Jamiroquai (if at all), he apparently toured with Take That. He's a pretty bad example.

[crez5150]

You think he's a bad example because he toured with Take That?

[poptart]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215811' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:50 PM']Yeah I bet he can. Is it in any way related to a discussion of artistic integrity though? Regardless of how creative he gets to be with Jamiroquai (if at all), he apparently toured with Take That. He's a pretty bad example.[/quote]

Ermm - Paul was MD (Musis Director) with Take that and also Boyzone - I know not exactly super cool, but as a pro musician that is not bad! I was citing him as an example of where being in a function band can get you. Paul is a great guy and a very competant professional player - I think you will find that his input reaches far beyond "just" playing bass.

Just an example nothing else.

Mark

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='crez5150' post='215813' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:52 PM']You think he's a bad example because he toured with Take That?[/quote]

[b][size=4]YES![/size][/b]

[quote name='poptart' post='215815' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:58 PM']Ermm - Paul was MD (Musis Director) with Take that and also Boyzone - I know not exactly super cool, but as a pro musician that is not bad![/quote]

Exactly. As a professional, he's doing very well. As an artist, he's played with Take That and Boyzone.

I feel a bit like I'm banging my head against a wall here. Bands like Take That and Boyzone - bands specifically and cynically assembled for the purpose of exploiting the music industry - do not belong in a discussion of integrity, except to serve as the worst possible example of a lack of it.

[ironside1966]

Keep Music Live
But only the bands I Like



I new a sound engineer once, on Saturday night he was full of opinions about integrity of other people and the bad points of other engineers.

Monday to Friday he fitted carpets
Sunday he rested.

[crez5150]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215823' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:11 PM'][b][size=4]YES![/size][/b]



Exactly. As a professional, he's doing very well. As an artist, he's played with Take That and Boyzone.

I feel a bit like I'm banging my head against a wall here. Bands like Take That and Boyzone - bands specifically and cynically assembled for the purpose of exploiting the music industry - do not belong in a discussion of integrity, except to serve as the worst possible example of a lack of it.[/quote]

Sorry but I completely disagree with that. What your saying is that as a Pro Bassist he has no integrity...... As an artist you cannot judge his integrity as you have nothing to judge apart from his work on Tours as an MD. Thats absurd.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='crez5150' post='215828' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:20 PM']Sorry but I completely disagree with that. What your saying is that as a Pro Bassist he has no integrity...... As an artist you cannot judge his integrity as you have nothing to judge apart from his work on Tours as an MD. Thats absurd.[/quote]

Well, if you believe that the musical output of Take That and Boyzone have artistic merit, we are unlikely to ever reach a concensus. The fact that Paul Turner is now playing for Jamiroquai is of no consequence whatsoever, regardless of what a good gig that probably was 15 years ago.

[Jase]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='215827' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:18 PM']Keep Music Live
But only the bands I Like



I new a sound engineer once, on Saturday night he was full of opinions about integrity of other people and the bad points of other engineers.

Monday to Friday he fitted carpets
Sunday he rested.[/quote]


Classic! Got shot of my integrity years ago, I don't care two hoots about it. I'll play anywhere, play anything, play how I feel...if nobody likes it they can always leave.....and quite often they do

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215849' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:03 AM']Well, if you believe that the musical output of Take That and Boyzone have artistic merit, we are unlikely to ever reach a concensus. The fact that Paul Turner is now playing for Jamiroquai is of no consequence whatsoever, regardless of what a good gig that probably was 15 years ago.[/quote]

It's fair to say that there is a substantial difference between artistry and craft. I think most of us are craftsmen. This in my view does not undermine our integrity.
Purely out of interest thisnameistaken, do you consider yourself to have artistic integrity? If so why? Do you accept the art/craft point?

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='215862' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:30 AM']Purely out of interest thisnameistaken, do you consider yourself to have artistic integrity? If so why? Do you accept the art/craft point?[/quote]

I do accept your art/craft point. I understand that some people here have invested thousands of hours in their instrumental skills and they may well have a very keen interest in performing, but playing Lady In Red for money or going on tour with Take That are not artistic endeavours, they are purely commercial.

As for my own integrity: I'm no Orwell, but I haven't played in a cover band, or in any band I didn't believe had any musical merit. I do other creative things outside of music (more often than music, these days) which I am even more precious about, and I think that's maybe why I'm more argumentative than most in this thread.

I also have a belief - not especially well-researched to be honest but it is long-held! - that very little decent art is produced by happy, contented people. And I think that any band which has considerable commercial success should pack it in once they're loaded, because the rest of their output is almost guaranteed to be garbage.

Maybe that makes me seem elitist, but I'm really not. I mean I sure as hell wouldn't play Mustang Sally for anyone, but that's just having standards.