Playing more musically

[mhuk]

With the zeal of a second-time-around learning-it-all-again bass player I'm getting a bit frustrated with the lack of musicality/ groove/ rhythm of my playing.
I practice scales, the stuff my tutor sets for me and the odd tune I like from Guitar Pro and have a go at it, and I always try to be [i]mindful [/i]of what I'm playing.

To use a language analogy, I feel like I'm learning the words OK but completely lacking the cadence and rhythm of the language and it's all

[font="Comic Sans MS"]Mi - nombre - es - Mark. Vivo - en - Worcester.[/font]


Is there any method or key tunes to learn to help me? Is it just a case of getting as many quality hours into my fingers?



Yours,

Frustrated of Tunbridge Wells.

Edited June 20, 2007 by mhuk

[The Funk]

Get great rhythmic feel with just 1 or 2 notes, then slowly incorporate all the other things you're learning.

[mhuk]

Any suggested simple tunes in that style?



I did find this method:

[quote]Suddenly men would start walking from the back of the room and approach the bandstand. This man said to me "look I want you ******s to understand something right now. We pat 25cent at the front door and we came in here to have a good time and it sounds to me you guys are playing a bunch of bullsh*t and we're not getting out money's worth so we wanna tell you now: we will take your instruments from you, whip your arse and destroy your vehicles and more than likely you will have to walk and beg your way back to Houston Texas. Now we will do this to you unless you make us feel real good real suddenly."

So, of course, this is the supreme method and technique in the learning of how to groove. I became an instant groove master and so did all of my buddies on the bandstand. This is a tale of development along the Texas/ Louisiana border.[/quote]

Edited June 20, 2007 by mhuk

[The Funk]

Errr, I wasn't really thinking about any particular style. When you approach any new style just try to get the rhythmic feel of it right first. The 12 notes are all the same in any style.

What kind of things do you want to play? I could suggest some tunes then.

[Cantdosleepy]

I'm not sure how good you are, so apologies if this is teaching you to suck eggs.

Do you have any kind of drum computer? I've got a copy of reason with lots of different drum loops which I play with in my room a lot to get used to playing along to different drum types.

The best way to get into the groove of a tune if you're not sure what's going on: listen to the drummer.

Start your bassline by playing the root notes, or very conservative notes (like, say, the fifth of the root) when the drummer kicks the bass drum. And [u]only[/u] when the drummer kicks the bass drum.

Straightaway you'll thicken and bolster the natural accent of the groove, and you'll suddenly have a rhythm section where before you had two musicians.

Keep on those notes for a while, listening very carefully. Where would an extra note sound good? Where would playing a note other than the root or fifth work well?

Then just try adding bits, and taking bits away, always mindful of the kick.

That (in my humble opinion) is a good way to be playing music in a song, not just playing appropriate notes in time.

[lukeward2004]

If you want a good song suggestion for something funky, musical and with a good rhythm, watch this:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tu08cgOzXg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tu08cgOzXg[/url]

Andrew Levy is a master of writing musical and groovy basslines IMO - someone to study for sure.

[Lenny B]

Sing a line and then find the notes you're singing.
You tend not to end up with the same patterns your hands naturally fall into

[skywalker]

Find some songs in 12 bar blues, so the chord progression is the same every time (well - almost). Three chords, so you can start with 3 root notes, and in the key of c the structure goes

C-C-C-C-F-F-C-C-G-F-C-C

Try quarter notes over this pattern, use a metronome for timing, and once you are familiar with it add some fifths or thirds and find some rythmic kicks. If you want to here how this can "swing" listen to In the Mood, the old Glenn Miller thing ( i am sure others will come up with better ones than this, but it is a place to start). Even when the key changes, the fingering pattern is always the same.

Steve

[Stewart]

A few tunes that are very simple but quirky:

Addicted to love (Robert Palmer)
Exodus (Bob Marley)
In the midnight hour (Wilson Picket)
Soulfinger (The Bar-Kays)

I just drop the treble on the stereo and play-along...

[Mikey D]

Scales can be musical as well remember!

When I practice then I split the time between doing them routinely to a metronome (on each beat and on 2&4 and on 1&3, occasionally on just the 1 aswell) as this helps your general time feel and in any of the following patterns:

All semiquavers
Dotted quaver - semiquaver
Semiquaver-dotted quaver
Semiquaver-quaver-semiquaver
Quaver-semiquaver-semiquaver
Semiquaver-semiquaver-Quaver
Triplets

These are most of the rhythmic groups you will come across as a bassist and you may as well practice rhythms while you are practicing your scales. More time effective!

Then of course there are different ways of playing the scales in 3rds, 4ths etc. As triads, as 7th arpeggios in three not groups as triplets, as three note groups as quavers to get a three over four feel (or 5 note groups to get a few jaco type runs).

The other half of the time I will use the scales as 'music'...Set a backing chord synth pad sound that relates to the scale you are using (is you can, if not if doesn't matter) and just play...You can limit yourself at first saying you are only going to use two notes, or you could only use two intervals, or chord tones etc. Don't forget to use dynamics (loud, soft, staccato, legato) and other techniques (hammer-ons, pull offs).

Scale practice in itself can be a musical and grooving practice, you don't just have to run up and down them.

I also practice my r/h fingering at the same time as this alternating between 2, 3 and 4 fingers.

Edited June 20, 2007 by Mikey D

[mhuk]

Cheers for all the comments.

Style was probably the wrong word; I think I meant playing notes (however simple and whatever style) so that it sounds musical rather than just a sequence of notes. Is the word I'm looking for rhythm?

At the moment I'd like to play a few tunes or riffs that feel musical. For example, Rapper's Delight and Deeper Underground are both enjoyable to play but are also probably beyond me (to give an indication of performance); sometimes they sound/ feel good to play, other times just a bunch of notes played sequentially.

Haven't got Reason although I do use a PC metronome; I'll look into it.

No eggs being sucked


[quote]add some fifths or thirds[/quote] - not sure what you mean.

Maybe I'm expecting too much too soon and just need to keep at it and think about it next year?

[quote]Scale practice in itself can be a musical and grooving practice, you don't just have to run up and down them.[/quote]

yes (it was you ya bugger who got me thinking about this after the Bass Bash). Except I don't know what "All semiquavers
Dotted quaver - semiquaver" means....

Edited June 20, 2007 by mhuk

[Mikey D]

[quote name='mhuk' post='20789' date='Jun 20 2007, 02:45 PM']yes (it was you ya bugger who got me thinking about this after the Bass Bash). Except I don't know what "All semiquavers
Dotted quaver - semiquaver" means.... [/quote]

Sorry...but it will be worth it down the line.. i promise.

Do you understand what an 8th is? and a 16th? because they are just other terms for quaver (8th) and semiquaver (16th).

[lukeward2004]

A good book aswell for improving your harmony and thus helping you to play more musically is "Fingerboard Harmony for Bass" by Gary Willis - a very good read and some excellent advice in there.

[paul, the]

Try practicing rhythms you wouldn't normally play and that come very unnaturally to you. You'll get the notes down first and then after a while it should click. Then all you'll be able to play is the new rhythm, elation ensues.


Whatever you're not used to: Cuban, Reggae, Motown.

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If this isn't Kosha, please delete:

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[url="http://rapidshare.com/files/9996127/Reggae_Bass__Bass_Builders__mp3.pdf.html"]http://rapidshare.com/files/9996127/Reggae...s__mp3.pdf.html[/url]
[url="http://rapidshare.com/files/10033120/The_True_Cuban_Bass.pdf.html"]http://rapidshare.com/files/10033120/The_T...n_Bass.pdf.html[/url]
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This is a good way of understanding rhythmic feel. Developing it is a different matter! Once you've tried a few different rhythms, have a jam with an experienced drummer and show them off.



BASS IS ALL ABOUT RHYTHM ala groove.

Edited June 20, 2007 by paul, the

[paul, the]

[quote name='lukeward2004' post='20797' date='Jun 20 2007, 02:56 PM']A good book aswell for improving your harmony and thus helping you to play more musically is "Fingerboard Harmony for Bass" by Gary Willis - a very good read and some excellent advice in there.[/quote]

I'm still after that. Damn me and my frugality.

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='mhuk' post='20789' date='Jun 20 2007, 02:45 PM']Style was probably the wrong word; I think I meant playing notes (however simple and whatever style) so that it sounds musical rather than just a sequence of notes. Is the word I'm looking for rhythm?

At the moment I'd like to play a few tunes or riffs that feel musical. For example, Rapper's Delight and Deeper Underground are both enjoyable to play but are also probably beyond me (to give an indication of performance); sometimes they sound/ feel good to play, other times just a bunch of notes played sequentially.

Haven't got Reason although I do use a PC metronome; I'll look into it.

No eggs being sucked [/quote]

Glad you're finding some of this helpful.

You shouldn't put it off - even if you don't get it immediately, learning a bit of theory at the beginning is very helpful.

[b]"Add some thirds of fifths"[/b]

In the example Skywalker gave you, he suggested playing "C-C-C-C-F-F-C-C-G-F-C-C"

when he says 'thirds' he means 'the third note in the root's scale' and by 'fifths' he means 'the fifth note in the roots scale'

So the scale of C goes: C D E F G A B ©. Imagine these notes are numbered 1-7:

[font="Courier New"]C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7[/font]

The fifth is the fifth note, C D E F [b][size=3]G[/size][/b] A B C


So Skywalker was saying, when you're happy playing "C-C-C-C-F-F-C-C-G-F-C-C", try throwing a G in where you' put a C:

C-C-C-G-F-F-C-C-G-F-C-C [i]or[/i] C-G-C-C-F-F-C-C-G-F-C-C [i]or even[/i] C-G-C-G-F-F-C-G-G-F-C-G.

Some will sound a bit weird, some will sound great.

Not sure how well I explained that.

[lukeward2004]

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='20804' date='Jun 20 2007, 03:17 PM']Not sure how well I explained that.[/quote]


Very well explained!

[chardbass]

[quote name='mhuk' post='20717' date='Jun 20 2007, 12:55 PM']With the zeal of a second-time-around learning-it-all-again bass player I'm getting a bit frustrated with the lack of musicality/ groove/ rhythm of my playing.
I practice scales, the stuff my tutor sets for me and the odd tune I like from Guitar Pro and have a go at it, and I always try to be [i]mindful [/i]of what I'm playing.

To use a language analogy, I feel like I'm learning the words OK but completely lacking the cadence and rhythm of the language and it's all

[font="Comic Sans MS"]Mi - nombre - es - Mark. Vivo - en - Worcester.[/font]
Is there any method or key tunes to learn to help me? Is it just a case of getting as many quality hours into my fingers?
Yours,

Frustrated of Tunbridge Wells.[/quote]

The best advice I can give is to [i]listen[/i] to music and basslines that have the traits that you describe (Luke's tip was a good one)- really let yourself absorb these sounds and over time you will find that with the practicing and playing you will invariably do along the way, your feel and fluency will improve.
It takes time and there is no short cut but you cannot underestimate the importance of your [i]ears[/i] in this kind of development. Once you get the sounds and feelings into your soul via your ears, it's all gonna come out one way or the other!!

Your tutor will drip feed you too, so you will get to apply the theory you are being taught soon. Basic technique is first but scales are the important building blocks- get your head around them and their component parts (3rds, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths etc) and things will start to fall into place.
Don't be frustrated.

Edited June 20, 2007 by chardbass

[mhuk]

wow- loads to read! Let me digest and return.

@Mikey: I wasn't complaining- I'm glad you've put me on this path - it's just looking a bit uphill at the moment.

[quote]Not sure how well I explained that.[/quote] Yep, that makes sense.

Cheers again

Edited June 20, 2007 by mhuk

[lowhand_mike]

mhuk, i think i'm kinda in the same boat as you, though i'm not having lessons either.
i can play pretty much anything if i put my mind to it but i really really struggle to jam, i put this down to not knowing my scales, i understand the root fith third thing but thats no use without the scales. and i think i can groove once i have something set but it's the free bit i struggle with so is there any tips on learning the scales that aren't ultimately dull or is it just a case of thats the boring bit that makes it all interesting? so just shud up and do it?

[mhuk]

I practice scales everyday and have just started to try to practice them in a such a way as to make a "tune" based on the scale I'm playing. Practicing in isolation seems to be catch 22- don't feel good enough to play in band yet without that exposure my progress in some key areas will be restricted.

Anyway, scales aren't hard and don't take long so you know the answer to your question

[quote]listen to music and basslines that have the traits that you describe[/quote] The basslines that really stick in my head are most of the ones on Kind of Blue. Learning the spaces between the notes is harder for me than playing the notes... Love the tunes but they kill me

Edited June 20, 2007 by mhuk

[lowhand_mike]

i can't recommend playing in a band or just practicing with some friends enough, the learning curve gained by this is really astonishing i've found, in risk of repeating myself i used to play about 8 years ago and had been playing for about 6 years and then i stopped, i've only being playing since last september or thereabouts again but i've found from playing in a band i can now play stuff i really struggled with before it really helps your ear your timing , feel and above all confidence which makes tackling harder stuff that little bit easier.

geuss i better go look up that bass website with all the scales on it.

[skywalker]

[quote]In the example Skywalker gave you, he suggested playing "C-C-C-C-F-F-C-C-G-F-C-C"

when he says 'thirds' he means 'the third note in the root's scale' and by 'fifths' he means 'the fifth note in the roots scale'

So the scale of C goes: C D E F G A B ©. Imagine these notes are numbered 1-7:

[font="Courier New"]C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7[/font]

The fifth is the fifth note, C D E F [b][size=3]G[/size][/b] A B C
So Skywalker was saying, when you're happy playing "C-C-C-C-F-F-C-C-G-F-C-C", try throwing a G in where you' put a C:

C-C-C-G-F-F-C-C-G-F-C-C [i]or[/i] C-G-C-C-F-F-C-C-G-F-C-C [i]or even[/i] C-G-C-G-F-F-C-G-G-F-C-G.

Some will sound a bit weird, some will sound great.

Not sure how well I explained that.[/quote]


Hi Mhuk

Just expanding on can't do sleepy's explanation, bear in mind we are playing 12 bars, in the sequence i showed above c-c-c-c-f-f-c-c-g-f-c.

You should play four quarter notes per bar, on the count of 1-2-3-4, so first four bars the notes are c-c-c-c, then for 2 bars f-f-f-f, the 2 bars c-c-c-c, then 1 bar g-g-g-g, then 1 bar f-f-f-f, then two bars c-c-c-c. Listen to this as you play, it will sound familiar after a couple of goes - thousands of songs are written with this progression. Once you have this down and can do it time with the metronome at a speed of say 60-80, try this:-

c-c-c-c / c-e-g-e / c-c-c-c / c-e-g-f# / f-f-f-f- / f-a-c-f / c-e-g-e / c-e-f-f#/ g-b-g-f# / f-a-f-f/ c-e-g-a-a#-a-g-e (over 2 bars)

This adds thirds and fifths, to make the line more interesting, and at bar 4 adds an f# to "walk" the line naturally down to the F in bar 5, this happens again at bar 8, where using anf F and F# the line "walks" to the G in bar 9, where after root-3-root use an f# to walk the line naturally back the f in bar 10. Over the last two bars play the simple boogie line which delivers you back to start. Once you have this down you can experiment over the same 12 bars forever and never play the same twice, and it should always sound ok.

Happy experimenting

Steve

[Kiwi]

You can do everything that has been suggested so far but it all comes down to attitude at the end of the day. If your playing doesn't have emotional content then it will suck. Sit down with your bass sometime and play whatever comes into your head that describes how you feel about anything that gives you strong emotion. Play with total conviction.

Listen to your playing and hear how your attack, volume and note choice all vary with your feel. Listen to how certain intervals have a certain emotional flavour - the anger of a dominant 5th compared to the sadness of a minor 3rd. Then play a diminished 5th to hear how the dissonance makes you feel unsettled.

When you get used to that, then explore how the transition of one interval into another can have an emotional effect by the tension it creates as it moves towards a resolution.

Then you can explore melodies and see how tension is created by the notes in the melody line in comparison to the chord/key being played underneath.

Just keep doing that lots but keep exploring and pushing the boundaries.

[Alun]

Hi. I don't think I have a huge amount to add in terms of songs, theory, etc as the posts above advise on these perfectly, so instead I'm going to go back to your language analogy..

In your example, you show the words disjointed and seperate - a series of individual blocks rather than a sentence. What's the difference - one flows and one doesn't, basically.

So, working on that theory I would say to not only listen to the notes and where they occur (which is the rhythmic element), but also how you move between them. Is the transition smooth? Is there any buzz? Do you move your hand/fingers more than you need to (eg lifting your fingers up too far from the fingerboard or shifting your whole hand rather than using another finger)? My whole outlook on playing ( OK, and life ) is do as much as possible by doing as little as possible eg economy of motion.

If this is the problem, you could just try playing a line that moved between two notes, say the 3rd and 5th frets on the A string and really focus on moving as little as possible while still getting full notes and making it as smooth as possible.

Cheers,
Alun