ditched my effects and got my dream sound

[51m0n]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1354189795' post='1883241']
The capacity for
Technically your correct but as you say the loudness war is destroying CD as a hi fidelity playback system. Guess thats why some older Vinyl sounds really good as they were mastered before this 'louder the better' mastering took off
[/quote]

Yes but by that argument old CDs (pre 1995 say) sound even better than the vinyl of the time....

[KingBollock]

So, are we back to what I said earlier? Not all sources are mixed perfectly so having a solution to tailor it to your own personal taste isn't such a bad thing.

[51m0n]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1354201234' post='1883499']
So, are we back to what I said earlier? Not all sources are mixed perfectly so having a solution to tailor it to your own personal taste isn't such a bad thing.
[/quote]

This isnt the mix we are talking about, its the mastering of that mix. Even more specifically the part of the mastering process that brings up the level to commercially 'acceptable' level .

Short of having the stereo mix before it got to the mastering studio there is nothing you can do to 'undo' the processing undertaken by a mastering engineer to get that level to where his paying client accepts it.

An EQ couldnt help at all.

[KingBollock]

I have some CDs that I probably couldn't listen to if I couldn't fiddle with the EQ a bit. Mostly it's because they are CDs by bands with not a lot of money. That is my main point but I have my own personal taste. On the stereo in the conservatory and the one in the bedroom there is no proper EQ, just Rock, Jazz, Classical etc, options, I have a tendency to go for the Rock option with nearly all my CDs, except the Sabaton ones which sound awful on anything other than Jazz (including no EQ. They're even the same when converted to MP3 and played through an MP3 player, they have to be set to Jazz.). Granted we're talking about a £500 stereo not £2000, but even a £2000 stereo isn't going to be able to fix a CD that was mixed on a shoe string budget.

[51m0n]

Why would you expect a stereo to 'fix' anything though?

It just plays back what is there into the space it sits in.

Cr4p in cr4p out. If the acoustic is also cr4p then you can end up with a cr4p filter on the good stuff coming out of the stereo too.

[51m0n]

I would also say that in real terms the Kit Richardson stuff was 'mixed on a shoestring budget' Its not the kit you have its how you use it and what you know that determines the quality of the result.

[KingBollock]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1354205811' post='1883610']
Why would you expect a stereo to 'fix' anything though?

It just plays back what is there into the space it sits in.

Cr4p in cr4p out. If the acoustic is also cr4p then you can end up with a cr4p filter on the good stuff coming out of the stereo too.
[/quote]
Sometimes you don't have much choice. One of my favourite albums is Cradle Of Filth's Cruelty and the Beast, but the mix is bloomin' rubbish. Adding a little treble and taking away a bit of the middle helps loads. Obviously I love this album for many other things than the mix. And, like I said, all of Sabaton's albums sound crap unless you do to it whatever the Jazz setting does to it, and I love those albums too. Then there are the early Metallica albums which are famously poorly mixed, especially when it comes to the Bass, but there are things you can do to help. And how many bands have remixed and re-released their back catalogues?
These are brilliant albums with fantastic music (in my opinion...), but you can't always account for it when one bloke gets a stubborn idea in his head of how the music should be mixed, whether it's the mixer or some know-it-all from the band who is insisting on it being mixed a certain way. But I'd rather have to fiddle with it than not get to listen to it at all.
I think one of the problems was that early CDs weren't specifically mixed for CD, requiring them to be remixed later. But until that happens you have to listen to what you've got. Maybe in the future it won't be such a problem, but there is always going to be a human factor.

[51m0n]

You're talking about a bit of eq for reasons of taste, which as I said earlier I have no problem with.

This is semantics though, you aren't 'fixing the mix', you aren't 'fixing the mastering' at all. You are merely getting your system in your room to represent the output in a fashion that is more pleasing to you. Which is totally cool.

But, it may well not be the mix, or the mastering that is the root of the problem, nor even the fact that you don't have crystals on your shakra, far more likely is that the problem is acoustic (although I'll grant you that And Justice is a shocking mix, no amount of bass boost will actually turn up the bass, its buried by, well, everything, you just turn everything up in that area of the spectrum, as well as the bass).

[xgsjx]

Another great album that has a crap bass mix is The Real Thing by FNM. Brilliant basslines that sound like they've been played by a skeleton in a biscuit tin.
Always needs a bit of EQ to sound 1/2 decent, but I agree that nothing I do can make it sound good.
They should get a decent producer to remaster it.

[KingBollock]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1354216854' post='1883814']
You're talking about a bit of eq for reasons of taste, which as I said earlier I have no problem with.

This is semantics though, you aren't 'fixing the mix', you aren't 'fixing the mastering' at all. You are merely getting your system in your room to represent the output in a fashion that is more pleasing to you. Which is totally cool.

But, it may well not be the mix, or the mastering that is the root of the problem, nor even the fact that you don't have crystals on your shakra, far more likely is that the problem is acoustic (although I'll grant you that And Justice is a shocking mix, no amount of bass boost will actually turn up the bass, its buried by, well, everything, you just turn everything up in that area of the spectrum, as well as the bass).
[/quote]
To be honest I'm not really arguing with people here. I spent a very awkward few hours with a very drunk, Glaswegian with a very, very strong accent, who was also a Led Zeppelin fan and an Audiophile. He spent those hours lecturing me on the superior music of Led Zeppelin and his stereo system. He told me the price of every component of his system and why he has a little weight that sits on his CDs to hold them in place while playing and a large proportion of that time included a talk about why he doesn't have an EQ and why no one else should either. And to top it off, on my way down the stairs into the, busy, Pub he lives above, my belt buckle came undone and my trousers fell down.
Every single word of that is absolutely true. Audiophiles make my teeth itch and my balls draughty.

[51m0n]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1354217339' post='1883822']
Another great album that has a crap bass mix is The Real Thing by FNM. Brilliant basslines that sound like they've been played by a skeleton in a biscuit tin.
Always needs a bit of EQ to sound 1/2 decent, but I agree that nothing I do can make it sound good.
They should get a decent producer to remaster it.
[/quote]

Yeah that is one horrid sounding bass, very much 'of its time' though, and back then unusual in that you could hear it at all, but then BG never had a bass sound to compare with Flea's, and yet I love his playing now more than ever, especially on that album...

It woud take a remix to fix that one, not a remaster I'm afraid

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1354220136' post='1883872']
To be honest I'm not really arguing with people here. I spent a very awkward few hours with a very drunk, Glaswegian with a very, very strong accent, who was also a Led Zeppelin fan and an Audiophile. He spent those hours lecturing me on the superior music of Led Zeppelin and his stereo system. He told me the price of every component of his system and why he has a little weight that sits on his CDs to hold them in place while playing and a large proportion of that time included a talk about why he doesn't have an EQ and why no one else should either. And to top it off, on my way down the stairs into the, busy, Pub he lives above, my belt buckle came undone and my trousers fell down.
Every single word of that is absolutely true. Audiophiles make my teeth itch and my balls draughty.
[/quote]

I thinkk we are on the same wavelength too really. That whole audiophile snake oil really boils my p*&@ as well!

All the money wasted on gobbledeegook, I know a friend of a friend who designs audiophile speakers (size of a warddrobe each they are) and someone in that game (who has made himself very very rich I might add) has apparently advised him that charging [i]only [/i]8 grand a pair wont get him the 'right' clientelle (for which read the mega rich who like a bit of tinycockovercompensation in the hifi department who generally live in the middle east apparently), he should really consider charging at least four or five times as much to be taken 'seriously'

Its madness!

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1354221210' post='1883889']
Yeah that is one horrid sounding bass, very much 'of its time' though, and back then unusual in that you could hear it at all, but then BG never had a bass sound to compare with Flea's, and yet I love his playing now more than ever, especially on that album...

It woud take a remix to fix that one, not a remaster I'm afraid



I thinkk we are on the same wavelength too really. That whole audiophile snake oil really boils my p*&@ as well!

All the money wasted on gobbledeegook, I know a friend of a friend who designs audiophile speakers (size of a warddrobe each they are) and someone in that game (who has made himself very very rich I might add) has apparently advised him that charging [i]only [/i]8 grand a pair wont get him the 'right' clientelle (for which read the mega rich who like a bit of tinycockovercompensation in the hifi department who generally live in the middle east apparently), he should really consider charging at least four or five times as much to be taken 'seriously'

Its madness!
[/quote]

+1. I cannot see the point in spending hundreds on interconnect and speaker cables. I was at a demo of the like some years ago and just could not hear a difference between a 50 quid interconnect and one costing 5 times the price. Have invited some friends around and Just done an a cd/vinyl comparison with prefab sprouts Steve Mcqueen. The consensus is the vinyl wins hands down. So is the primare just a bum CD player,?. Its certainly better than the marantz player it replaced. Whats you recommendation?

[51m0n]

I don't know enough about that CD player, plugged into that amp, into those speakers in that room to say why you and your friends prefer the vinyl so much. I don't doubt your belief that the vinyl playback gives you more satisfaction than the CD for one moment, I just cant tell you why, and if I were there with you I may not agree either

I also don't know the history of the mastering of that album - some were mastered differently for vinyl and CD, Blood Sugar Sex Magic had a double disc release on vinyl that was supposed to have been very much mastered especially for that medium and sounds stunning. They don't do that all that often though since it does increase the album cost.

Its certainly the case that the CD and amp may not get the best out of each other, I certainly believe that all this stuff is different and some gear works better with other gear to give a more enjoyable result. All I've been saying is that CD is definitely capable of exceeding the fidelity of vinyl in all meaningful ways, and that with a reasonable hifi in place I would look at the room if there is some dissatisfaction with the result as a whole. Clearly you are dissatisfied with the CD player you have, it may well just not play as nice as the turntable for you with that amp. What more can I say....

As for interconnects, you cannot go wrong with a decent bit off cable (say Klotz) and Neutriks plugs in each end, soldered well.

[leroydiamond]

Thanks. Its all interesting stuff. I think the issue of the loudness war killing CD as a medium is the most salient aspect regarding the conversation, considering CD is capable of delivering so much more in terms of quality. I reckon thats the reason I tend to pull out some vinyl when I have some friends around . Cannot put up with the harsh sound that is part and parcel of so many albums released nowadays. I will have a shot at switching my CD player with the community of audiophiles that live locally to see can I get a better match for my system. Must keep an eye out for that RHCP double vinyl album. One of my favourite bands. Flea is the man really

[xgsjx]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1354270137' post='1884229']
Must keep an eye out for that RHCP double vinyl album. One of my favourite bands. Flea is the man really
[/quote]

Now there's a man who knows how to use effects to good effect.

[51m0n]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1354270137' post='1884229']
Thanks. Its all interesting stuff. I think the issue of the loudness war killing CD as a medium is the most salient aspect regarding the conversation, considering CD is capable of delivering so much more in terms of quality. I reckon thats the reason I tend to pull out some vinyl when I have some friends around . Cannot put up with the harsh sound that is part and parcel of so many albums released nowadays. I will have a shot at switching my CD player with the community of audiophiles that live locally to see can I get a better match for my system. Must keep an eye out for that RHCP double vinyl album. One of my favourite bands. Flea is the man really
[/quote]

[url="http://www.whatrecords.co.uk/items/24206.htm"]Looks like it may well be still available[/url]

Although IIRC it was a limited edition, so thius may not be on the same quality vinyl as the one I am thinking of - vinyl, its a nightmare innit

Edited November 30, 2012 by 51m0n

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1354271255' post='1884247']
[url="http://www.whatrecords.co.uk/items/24206.htm"]Looks like it may well be still available[/url]

Although IIRC it was a limited edition, so thius may not be on the same quality vinyl as the one I am thinking of - vinyl, its a nightmare innit
[/quote]
No more a nightmare than buying a CD and discovering that it sounds like a bag of spanners due to the "louder is better" trend.

[LiamPodmore]

My Behringer preamp used to be always on, with a warm valvey tone when i used my Squier. I carried on using it when i got my P Bass, until one day it decided to stop working. I don't think i've ever used it as a permanent preamp since. P Bass - Amp is good for me, though i do have to have various amounts of Drive in there too, so i never go completely direct.

Liam

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1354270663' post='1884233']
Now there's a man who knows how to use effects to good effect.
[/quote]

. Just a great bass player regardless of effects. Has written some great bass lines and delivers them with powerful attitude.A joy to watch live. Much preferred his sound when he used a musicman though.

Edited November 30, 2012 by leroydiamond

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1354278205' post='1884337']
No more a nightmare than buying a CD and discovering that it sounds like a bag of spanners due to the "louder is better" trend.
[/quote]

If I had a £2000 CD player that sounded worse than a record player I would not consider any CD purchase a 'disaster'

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1354281055' post='1884380']
If I had a £2000 CD player that sounded worse than a record player I would not consider any CD purchase a 'disaster'
[/quote]
The issue is the mastering levels that are ruining CD as an audiophile medium. This is the case regardless of the player used.

[thisnameistaken]

When you put it like that I can see how the £2000 CD player would really come into its own if the music industry decides to remaster everything properly. And you know that might happen too, stranger things have happened. In the mean time you can get much cheaper CD players you know? I mean way, way cheaper. Normal shops sell them.

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1354282349' post='1884400']
When you put it like that I can see how the £2000 CD player would really come into its own if the music industry decides to remaster everything properly. And you know that might happen too, stranger things have happened. In the mean time you can get much cheaper CD players you know? I mean way, way cheaper. Normal shops sell them.
[/quote]

Dont want a cheaper CD player because not every artist falls victim of the "louder is better" trend, particularly more obscure artists and in such instances audiophile quality CD players are a step above the cheap and cheerful stuff

[KingBollock]

EDIT: Nevermind, not in the mood for an argument. Sorry about that.

Edited November 30, 2012 by KingBollock

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1354285751' post='1884468']
EDIT: Nevermind, not in the mood for an argument. Sorry about that.
[/quote]


[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1354285751' post='1884468']
EDIT: Nevermind, not in the mood for an argument. Sorry about that.
[/quote]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]To be honest I'm not really arguing with people here.[/font][/color]