garethfriend Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Got asked to do a few gigs for a mates folk group, never played folk before, mainly a rock player, first gig is on saturday. Mostly I am ok with the set but there are a few songs that are giving me timing troubles. Lineup is 2 guitars, vocals, banjo and drummer with just a snare and brushes. The problem I'm having is basically that all I have to go off is some weirdly accented guitar strumming (which isn't always the same) and offbeat drumming and I'm really struggling to hear the "1", if I don't hear it right first time I end up playing off beat with the rest of the band but it throws things. In the absence of a kick drum to follow does anyone have any advice for figuring out when to play? I know this should be pretty basic stuff but it's amazing how easy it is to get lost very quickly, surprised me for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I had a similar experience. I eventually put it down not to any intrinsic difficulty of folk music but me simply not being familiar enough with the genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethfriend Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 yeah, that's what I feel like really, I'm not "hearing it" yet. I'm sure I'll have a moment where it just clicks and I'll be like "wtf this isn't hard!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Bit of a culture shock eh? Having been somewhat immersed in that particular genre throughout my entire playing 'life' it's second nature now and trying to explain it is surprisingly difficult... Like all music, there is always 'something' that has a repeated rhythm within a folk tune. The trick is being able to work out what that thing is and 'latching' onto it. Once you have that you have to decide whether there's any point in playing at that point or if you're going to play either side of it instead. You have to do one thing or the other though, doing both will end up in a real mess. It is perfectly acceptable to vary that point between verses and choruses, but you have to be careful otherwise you might be going down a more folk\rock route that might not be appropriate within the constraints of the tune\band. Given the short amount of time you have before the gig, it's probably best to either get a recording of the band or ask your mate to point you at versions of the tunes that are closest to what they do and immerse yourself in that for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethfriend Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 yeah that was my plan got a load of recordings to play to, think I might have had a breakthrough already - one of the songs just clicked, don't know how to explain it but I'm playing wherever the guitars are not and repeat. Makes no sense to me but it works, just a case of practicing listening for the repitition so I don't loose it. I think the other one I'm having trouble with is actually due to the recording, it's mumford and sons - lion man, basically he gave me a track of him and a guitar and he speeds up a load after a break (a little excited possibly) which is definitley throwing me off, it's only that section too so hopefully the drummer will keep things in check on the night a bit. Am actually looking forward to this gig a bit more than I usually do as it's a challenge, possibly got one practice before we go on so a bit of a chance to put it into action live before the night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 [quote name='garethfriend' timestamp='1327969675' post='1519841'] yeah that was my plan got a load of recordings to play to, think I might have had a breakthrough already - one of the songs just clicked, don't know how to explain it but I'm playing wherever the guitars are not and repeat. Makes no sense to me but it works, just a case of practicing listening for the repitition so I don't loose it. [/quote] Yep, it's a lot more awkward than rock to get right because you have to get a totally different sense of rhythm going on in your head. After 30 years of playing in the folk/folk rock/roots genre I really have to concentrate when I'm playing more mainstream stuff or I end up giving the drummer a nervous breakdown. [quote name='garethfriend' timestamp='1327969675' post='1519841'] I think the other one I'm having trouble with is actually due to the recording, it's mumford and sons - lion man, basically he gave me a track of him and a guitar and he speeds up a load after a break (a little excited possibly) which is definitley throwing me off, it's only that section too so hopefully the drummer will keep things in check on the night a bit. [/quote] Just had a listen to it on YouTube - I can see how the guitarist speeds up after the break - the temptation would certainly be there. I've only got monitor speakers so I couldn't hear exactly what the bass player was up to, but I'd guess that he's following the bass drum for the chorus and then sparingly latching onto the banjo player for the verses. The hardest bit is going to get the dead stops that appear from 3:30 onwards. [quote name='garethfriend' timestamp='1327969675' post='1519841'] Am actually looking forward to this gig a bit more than I usually do as it's a challenge, possibly got one practice before we go on so a bit of a chance to put it into action live before the night. [/quote] The biggest danger really is that you'll be tempted to fall back into 'rock mode' and find it impossible to get back out again before the end of the song. Stay cool and calm and you'll be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 [quote name='garethfriend' timestamp='1327969675' post='1519841'] he speeds up a load after a break (a little excited possibly) which is definitley throwing me off [/quote] I know this one and I sympathise with you! The guitarist in my old folk duo was a total b*stard for speeding up and slowing down (and dropping beats..) depending on how much he was enjoying himself. The only advice I can offer is to learn the original track inside out so that you can feel when the guitarist is getting creative with the timing and allow yourself to go with him. In rock, the bass is usually integral to the rhythm, in folk you should consider yourself more of an accompanist, especially in the absence of a drummer. Also, Ive found that in situations where you're not 100% on the track a 'less is more' approach definitley works. No one in a folk audience is going to berate you for playing one note per bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 On a much lower level of complexity, but with a similar unfamiliarity, I struggled with something as simple as Galway Girl (seemingly random root and fifths and inversions of the same) until I'd listened to it enough that it just 'clicked', as you say. I think there might be a Folk Bass Threshold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I've been recording a couple of folky people recently and they've asked me to put bass on. With the lack of bass drum, I was really trying to get the bass to replace that and take up the rhythm role. Unfortunately I was asked to put bass on after the tracks were almost done, so I had to play in time to speeding up and slowing down, but yeh, my main point is that if there's no kick drum - try and be the kick drum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1328005865' post='1520070'] I've been recording a couple of folky people recently and they've asked me to put bass on. With the lack of bass drum, I was really trying to get the bass to replace that and take up the rhythm role. Unfortunately I was asked to put bass on after the tracks were almost done, so I had to play in time to speeding up and slowing down, but yeh, my main point is that if there's no kick drum - try and be the kick drum? [/quote] Possibly, but you have to be aware of what the rest of the group is using as a rhythm 'source' or you'll take half of them off down a totally different avenue or get left there on your own when they ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 you're the bassist. Your rhythm will be the best to follow I'm sure you're totally right, I don't have a lot of experience in the genre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1328008920' post='1520130'] you're the bassist. Your rhythm will be the best to follow I'm sure you're totally right, I don't have a lot of experience in the genre [/quote] Gawd, you don't want to follow me - I'll get you into all sorts of trouble... EDIT: In fact, I have been known to shout [i]'Don't follow me, I haven't decided where I'm going yet!'[/i] Edited January 31, 2012 by icastle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 [quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1328004468' post='1520043'] I think there might be a Folk Bass Threshold [/quote] There is, but people still talk to me anyway... mostly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethfriend Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Cheers for the advice guys, going to lock myself in a room with the bass and spend a good few hours concentrating on it and I reckon I'll pull it off. Definitley resorting to the playing less if I get lost trick, that and the "it's the wrong note but it's in the right key, just play it like you meant it" trick. Weirdly I tried to immerse myself in the folk/bluegrass thing a bit more last night and ended up back at metal: http://youtu.be/pT04SWtJ6bA guess there's no helping me... Edited January 31, 2012 by garethfriend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Like icastle says, find something to latch on to or become the metronome. Could be the tapping of someone's foot or the vocal melody. That's how it works in my band. We're a 3 piece with singer/guitar/banjo mandolin/whistle/cutlery & me on bass, though I don't know for sure that you'd class us as a trad folk band. The singer plays Canadian folk (AKA Americana, Country & such stuff), the mandolinist is a Scottish folkie through & through & I play Electronica/Breakbeat/techno style basslines. Oddly enough, it kinda works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Forgot to ask, how did you get on with this gig Gareth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janmaat Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 http://youtu.be/7mU2lJKkQ04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethfriend Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) went really well, one of the most enjoyable gigs I've ever done actually. Did a folky version of "eye of the tiger" which went down really well with the audience. It happened to land on the weekend we got snow so it wasn't as rammed as it was due to be but a good atmosphere none the less. Going to be doing another one some point soon for all the people who wanted to come but couldn't. The singer/songwriter is Harris Macfarlane if anyone's interested: [url="https://www.facebook.com/harrismacfarlane?sk=app_178091127385"]https://www.facebook...pp_178091127385[/url] Should point out that isn't me playing on the recordings and the recordings are quite different to the live act, definitely folk it up more live. Think I'm a convert though, there's something about banjos and not taking things too seriously that is a refreshing change from rock. Edited February 26, 2012 by garethfriend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethfriend Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 [quote name='janmaat' timestamp='1330261705' post='1554740'] [media]http://youtu.be/7mU2lJKkQ04[/media] [/quote] Love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 [quote name='garethfriend' timestamp='1330277797' post='1555043'] went really well, one of the most enjoyable gigs I've ever done actually. Did a folky version of "eye of the tiger" which went down really well with the audience. It happened to land on the weekend we got snow so it wasn't as rammed as it was due to be but a good atmosphere none the less. Going to be doing another one some point soon for all the people who wanted to come but couldn't. [/quote] Ah - 'back by popular demand' is always good. We've been working on a folky laid back version of Bon Jovi's 'Living on a Prayer' this afternoon complete with a low whistle lead solo that's sounding rather promising... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Bass and folk is always a problem. For dancing it's not a problem as dancers want a steady beat and (usually) that's what the band plays. Songs are a different issue, as a general rule, if there's no drummer, ignore playing root and five, it's boring and it won't work because they'll always be ahead or behind you. This is one of the few chances you'll get to play a bass melody and not get yelled at! Embrace it! It's fun! All that cool stuff that jazz bassists seem to get to do, you can do it in folk! Mind you I'm the sort of idjit that plays jigs on bass so maybe I'm biased Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 [quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1330293669' post='1555411'] Bass and folk is always a problem. For dancing it's not a problem as dancers want a steady beat and (usually) that's what the band plays. Songs are a different issue, as a general rule, if there's no drummer, ignore playing root and five, it's boring and it won't work because they'll always be ahead or behind you. This is one of the few chances you'll get to play a bass melody and not get yelled at! Embrace it! It's fun! All that cool stuff that jazz bassists seem to get to do, you can do it in folk! Mind you I'm the sort of idjit that plays jigs on bass so maybe I'm biased Steve [/quote] Nope, you're pretty much spot on. My band rarely plays with a drummer & I get to play most of the melodies with the other instruments providing the rhythm section. It's a nice refreshing change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 [quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1330293669' post='1555411'] Bass and folk is always a problem. For dancing it's not a problem as dancers want a steady beat and (usually) that's what the band plays. [/quote] You ever seen people trying to dance to 5/4? [quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1330293669' post='1555411'] Songs are a different issue, as a general rule, if there's no drummer, ignore playing root and five, it's boring and it won't work because they'll always be ahead or behind you. This is one of the few chances you'll get to play a bass melody and not get yelled at! Embrace it! It's fun! All that cool stuff that jazz bassists seem to get to do, you can do it in folk! [/quote] Absolutely. For all my mickey taking out of the jazz genre, there are more similarities musically than there are differences. We just tend to trim our beards more often and wash... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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