Late 60s beat-pop bass style/sound

[timtoomany]

I've always admired the bass line on Scott Walker's song 'The Old Man's Back Again' from Scott 4 (bassist uncredited) and would like to recreate the sound. I can get the notes more or less in place but it sounds like a pale imitation. For further reference it's the sort of bass style and sound that underpins Serge Gainsbourg's album Histoire de Melody Nelson, again the work of an uncredited bass player, particularly the track 'Ah! Melody'.

Does anyone have any ideas on equipment, amp type/settings, technique to achieve an authentic sound?

[Cat Burrito]

Scott Walker is on my to explore further list but I'm fairly good on 60s bass sounds. I suspect you have ordinary roundwound strings? You haven't said what bass you are using? What changed me from a modern sounding bass player to a more retro sounding bassist was flatwound strings. The heavier gauge the better. I'd liked players like James Jamerson and Carole Kay but hadn't made the connection. I love Stephen Stills bass playing which is basically my tone now - Precision bass with flats. To get close to any 60s tone flats are the way forward. You can also try foam under the bridge to get an even more woody thump. I find amps are less important - any of the modern combos work ok, as do heads / cabs. Just make sure you have an older style bass (i.e. Fender, Epiphone, Hofner etc) and string it with flats and I promise you, you will be 95% there. I wish I'd taken that advice years ago. Now my sound is nearly always 100% where I want it to be.

[KK Jale]

+1 on all that Burrito said. Flats Is It.

The bass playing on 'Melody Nelson' is genius (and some of the guitar is too).

I understand 'Melody" is a bit of a was-it-Herbie-Flowers-or-was-it Brian Odgers mystery, but it never sounded like Herbie's Jazz with nylon flats to me, though it's very much his style... maybe more like a Gibson EB-0 with flats. I could easily be wrong, and I'd love to know.

[chris_b]

I only saw Scott Walker playing a Gibson EB2 in the very early days of the Walker Brothers. It probably had flats at that time, but I don't know what he would have used on your record.

After listening to Youtube:
This is not my favourite bass sound but it sounds like flats and he's using a pick, if that's any help.

[timtoomany]

Thanks for the advice. The only bass I've got with frets on it is a Squier Telecaster P bass, but you're right, it's got round wounds on it. I'll try out the flats and see how it goes. Another question though: won't I lose the punchy treble end with flats? - is that offset by using a pick?

Cheers for the help.

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='timtoomany' post='1126741' date='Feb 14 2011, 10:00 AM']Thanks for the advice. The only bass I've got with frets on it is a Squier Telecaster P bass, but you're right, it's got round wounds on it. I'll try out the flats and see how it goes. Another question though: won't I lose the punchy treble end with flats? - is that offset by using a pick?[/quote]
You will lose the punchy treble because it's replaced by a woody thump... this was my concern & I'd never go back now! I own a tele P-bass & putting flats on it was the best thing I did. Try a cheap set, you can always sell them on here on Basschat if they aren't for you.

Oh & thanks to this thread I bought Scott 4. At £4.49 on both Amazon & Play it'd be silly not to.

[Michaelg]

[quote name='timtoomany' post='1126538' date='Feb 13 2011, 11:00 PM']I've always admired the bass line on Scott Walker's song 'The Old Man's Back Again' from Scott 4 (bassist uncredited) and would like to recreate the sound. I can get the notes more or less in place but it sounds like a pale imitation. For further reference it's the sort of bass style and sound that underpins Serge Gainsbourg's album Histoire de Melody Nelson, again the work of an uncredited bass player, particularly the track 'Ah! Melody'.

Does anyone have any ideas on equipment, amp type/settings, technique to achieve an authentic sound?[/quote]

its almost definitely scott playing bass on that record. whoever it is, he is playing on either a jazz bass or precision bass with flatwound strings and using quite an aggresive picking technique.

in terms of amplification you'll be looking at something with lots of mid range and treble whilst easing off the low end. i have a graphic equaliser on my ampeg so you can really control those frequencies.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1126561' date='Feb 13 2011, 11:33 PM']I only saw Scott Walker playing a Gibson EB2 in the very early days of the Walker Brothers. It probably had flats at that time, but I don't know what he would have used on your record.

After listening to Youtube:
This is not my favourite bass sound but it sounds like flats and he's using a pick, if that's any help.[/quote]
Here we go:

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Michaelg' post='1127405' date='Feb 14 2011, 06:26 PM']its almost definitely scott playing bass on that record. whoever it is, he is playing on either a jazz bass or precision bass with flatwound strings and using quite an aggresive picking technique.

in terms of amplification you'll be looking at something with lots of mid range and treble whilst easing off the low end. i have a graphic equaliser on my ampeg so you can really control those frequencies.[/quote]
I'd agree it's flatwounds with a pick and probably on a Fender and very possibly Scott Engel himself. He had played bass sessions in Los Angeles before he joined the Walker Brothers and of course two of the most important session bassists in Los Angeles were Joe Osborn and Carol Kaye who were both using flats with a pick on Fenders.

[evilLordJuju]

Its almost an EB2 - actually an Epiphone Rivoli (still made by Gibson at their Kalamazoo plant, but with different headstock shape and inlay). I know i'm pedantic... sorry

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='evilLordJuju' post='1127647' date='Feb 14 2011, 09:19 PM']Its almost an EB2 - actually an Epiphone Rivoli (still made by Gibson at their Kalamazoo plant, but with different headstock shape and inlay). I know i'm pedantic... sorry [/quote]
If I'd actually bothered to look at it properly I might have noticed that it says Epiphone and not Gibson.

Edited February 14, 2011 by EssentialTension

[timtoomany]

[quote name='Michaelg' post='1127405' date='Feb 14 2011, 06:26 PM']its almost definitely scott playing bass on that record.[/quote]

My already high opinion of Scott Walker has just increased.

Heavy gauge flatwounds are in the post, and meanwhile I will work on my rusty picking technique.

Love the photo. Is it obligatory to wear the bass at collarbone height? Thanks again for all the good advice.

[chris_b]

[quote name='timtoomany' post='1128251' date='Feb 15 2011, 12:42 PM']....Love the photo. Is it obligatory to wear the bass at collarbone height?....[/quote]
Only if it feels comfortable. I think you're taking this too seriously!!

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='timtoomany' post='1128251' date='Feb 15 2011, 12:42 PM']Heavy gauge flatwounds are in the post, and meanwhile I will work on my rusty picking technique.

Love the photo. Is it obligatory to wear the bass at collarbone height? Thanks again for all the good advice.[/quote]
Just bear in mind if you've previously used lighter strings you *may* need to tweak the trussrod. It depends on how big a jump you are making.

Re bass height, that was just the fashion in the 60s, in the same way a lot of punks played near their knees!

[timtoomany]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1128305' date='Feb 15 2011, 01:23 PM']Only if it feels comfortable. I think you're taking this too seriously!![/quote]

Nah, I was just joshing!

[Conan]

Two of my favourite all-time bass lines/sounds come from this era/style:

Everlasting Love - The Love Affair
Little Green Bag - George Baker Selection

Lovely stuff. No idea who played them or on what though! I know that I use a lot of palm-muting when I try to play them...

Edited February 15, 2011 by Conan

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='headofire' post='1128610' date='Feb 15 2011, 05:18 PM']I agree with 99% of burrito's post except....There is no treble to a tele bass! but yeah that should get you there if you stick flatties on.[/quote]
I moved to flats before I bought a 51RI bass & that was the last bass to get changed over. And I'm not talking the tele bass with the mudbucker, we're talking about the early 50s ones that Squier & Fender have reissued - in case that gets me the extra 1% of approval!?

[chris_b]

[quote name='Conan' post='1128571' date='Feb 15 2011, 04:45 PM']Two of my favourite all-time bass lines/sounds come from this era/style:

Everlasting Love - The Love Affair
Little Green Bag - George Baker Selection

Lovely stuff. No idea who played them or on what though! I know that I use a lot of palm-muting when I try to play them...[/quote]
I don't know about the other but I thought Herbie Flowers played on Everlasting Love.

[Conan]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1128777' date='Feb 15 2011, 07:31 PM']I don't know about the other but I thought Herbie Flowers played on Everlasting Love.[/quote]

Really? That may explain why I like it so much then!

[chris_b]

Just done a bit of Googling and the drummer on the session, Clem Cattini says: it was session player, Russ Stableford, playing a fender bas, who played on Everlasting Love.

Russ Stableford is a new name on me! Apparently Russ was also on Je T'aiime.

[Cat Burrito]

Having now bought Scott 4 off the back of this thread, I can't stop playing it. Some awesome bass playing & just beautiful, beautiful arrangements

[timtoomany]

Glad you're enjoying it Burrito--it's one of my favourites.

Forgot to mention: Scott Walker's albums were mixed in the early days of stereo and if you pan left or right with the balance knob on your hi-fi you can isolate the bass or guitar parts. Specially helpful for learning parts and playing along.

Thanks to all the suggestions before. I've been playing with the flatwounds for a couple of weeks and they sound great. Can someone talk to me about putting foam under the bridge?

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='timtoomany' post='1159437' date='Mar 12 2011, 03:53 PM']Can someone talk to me about putting foam under the bridge?[/quote]
What I did was buy this;

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RED-Desktop-PC-Computer-Keyboard-Wrist-Rest-Support-Mat-/360228227634?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_MouseMats&hash=item53df468a32"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RED-Desktop-PC-Compu...=item53df468a32[/url]

and pull the red cover off. Then cut an appropriate shape off the mat and stick in up right by the bridge under the strings. You can buy a special bass mute for £100 if you don't like the idea of this

One mat has done all my basses and the beauty is if you aren't getting the desired effect on a bass you just cut another piece off at a slightly different size.

Re Scott 4 It was "The Old Man's Back Again" and "Get Behind Me" that really stood out bass wise. I've actually decided to take the album into the studio next time to use as a guide for the engineer. And that is quite a big deal for me!