EBS_freak

Man, you aren't doing this by halves. Do you play for Taylor Swift now?

There's a wealth of information out on BC already - but I'll summarise it for you here. Basically, the thought about using the PA is the same as what you'll see at the biggest of gigs. This is - 1. The majority, if not all (ideally this) the sound that the audience hears, comes out the front of house. 2. You'll need monitoring to hear your bass. This will either be traditional backline (- but typically a lot smaller than usual because it is not required to provide the bass to fill the venue), a wedge, or IEM. Note - Not all PAs are suitable for running a large amount of bass, particularly with a lot of low end frequencies, at high volumes. Just like you would need decent backline to put out a lot of bass, you'll need a comparatively good PA to do the same. This doesn't mean you need subwoofers, but it is likely that if you are looking at entry level PA cabs, you probably won't be satisfied with the results. If your PA is suitable for putting bass through, a XLR from your amp head (the three prong socket on the back) to your mixing desk, will get your bass signal from your amp head to the PA. You adjust your sound front of house for your bass in the same manner you would a microphone - from the desk. The EQ on your head should be for the EQ of your amp on stage* In terms of monitoring on stage, you can either plug in a cab to your bass amp and adjust the volume so you can hear yourself. Again, the quieter that you can get away with, the better - as the quieter the stage, the better you can get your mix out front and the less bleed you get going into vocal mics. How successful using a bass rig is on stage, depends on how loud the rest of the band is. Ideally, you want everybody as quiet as you can on stage and let the PA do the work. If you can have the bass amp facing back at you instead of the audience, (tilted back at your face if it helps), you will have less bleed into your mics. If you struggle to hear the band on stage now, then you aren't going to do well with making your rig smaller - unless the rest of the band turn down or you look at something like IEMs. You could do all your monitoring from the desk and get rid of you speaker if you have decent wedges. You can do the monitor mix from the desk and put exactly what you want to hear through a wedge. Note - most people skimp on wedges so invest in a very good wedge if you want to go this route and have lots of bass available to you. Alternatively, just check out IEMs and just sent everything you want to hear to your ears using your own personal mix. Theres a massive thread under the Accessories sub forum. There's everything and more in there. * This probably isn't the place for a pre/post DI discussion.

Did you replace the smell of weed and lines of coke with a Haze plugin and sherbet dibdab too? You have a lot to answer for young man.

My condolences. Hope you can rekindle the inner dinosaur.

Sounds like a complete fail then.

I think the pre/post thing is become less of an issue for sound guys now that more and more digital desks are on the scene. They can carve the signal they get a lot more accurately than when they just had analogue EQ. In reality, if you sent your sound guy a signal post your pedals but pre your amp EQ, he'd have to do less on the desk to reign that sound in. If your amp is grinding hard, then likelihood, they'll mic the cab (if they can even be bothered) as the bass will naturally be rolled off by the bass cab anyway. If you are lucky, you may get a blend of mic and DI out front. But here's the crux of the matter, if he's just a venue engineer and you are passing through, they won't really care if you sound like garbage. As long as more bands sound good than pants, they are good to go and it reflects more on your sound as a band rather than them as an engineer. I don't know why people seem intent on not working together with engineers.

True! The BBNE2 - love that bass. Not so keen on the BB EAST inlay though.

Exactly - the one that sounds best to your ears is the one for you!

That is a good point. As soon as you start going north of 500 quid, you'll see most speakers SPL jump from being 120 something to 130 something. 130 something is what you want for something loud. In terms of how low you go, well the frequency figure at -3dB figure is what you want. Remember though - as stated earlier in the thread, flooding the stage or room with those B and E string fundamentals are probably not what you want anyway - as your mix will soon become awash with subby mush. In reality, only in the biggest of rooms (which are either pretty dead or full of people) can you get away with large amount of sub bass. In short, if you spend the equivalent amount of money on a PA cab as you would a decent 2x12, you are going to more than OK. The RCFs are by far not the only cab that are suitable for the job. I know a couple of guys that are using DXR15s for example, to do similar. Don't just buy blind or take my word for it - these things are far easier to find than boutique bass cabs. Give it a go.

But what sort of monitors were you using? Like above with Metallica, the right monitors would be punching your teeth out. If you were using knackered old cheapo monitors (let's face it, most venues monitors are crap and in terms of personal PA, monitors are always where the savings are made) then of course you won't be getting the result you are looking for. Similarly, if you were to replace your rig with a meaty FRFR, there is zero reason why you couldn't get the exact same experience with one of those behind you as your existing rig. With all due respect, it sounds like you are in the camp of, "yeah, tried that... rubbish" when you haven't actually tried what this thread is about with gear that is actually up to the job. For example, you talk about carrying extra subs (because everybody just goes out and throws extra subs into the mix just like that when you change your backline) but if you were using a decent FRFR setup, you'd realise that a lot will actually go lower and louder than bass cabs... so if you don't need subs when using your bass cab, then you don't need subs with your FRFR. Please don't think that I'm having a go at you - I'm just standing up for the technology - and I just don't think that you've given it a fair trial and I don't think it's fair to run it down as a solution that others may be interested in based on your, what appears to be, limited experience.

Can't talk for the QSC but the 735 and 745 go low and loud... more so than most tops and can be used is most small venues without a sub. This is the point that I am making about the speakers in these cabs. You just don't get these large voice coiled speakers in abs cabs.

So what is it that you tried as an alternative?

The RCFs 735 and 745s are great due to the quality of the speakers that they use in them... (there's literally nothing else out there at that price point, especially in lightweight non wood cabs) The only perceivable downside, is that they don't look like a bass cab... I don't know if that's important to you or not. I know a couple of people who have made faux cabs (just a frame, with a vintage cloth over the front and black tolex and the hardware) that has the PA speakers inside. One guy I know lies the cab down inside so it's in the wedge position... so in a traditional setup with the amp behind you, at least you have a better chance of hearing everything when it's pointing at your head! There's loads of ways that you could use these setups... as I have hinted to earlier, I favour the FOH doing all the work... but a decent PA cab could serve as both an excellent wedge for pointing back to you (with the mix of all the band in it also)... or excellent backline when it's behind you and you need to rely on just that to get your bass heard. Both cabs mentioned are readily available at places that deal with PA... for example, if you can get yourself to a PMT, you'll be able to play through the Helix and both the RCF and QSC offerings... and see what you think, after all, it's you that the setup has to convince!

So the question is... warrants a signature bass... or not....?

Stick with it. People are scared of change... or haven't given it a fair crack of the whip to even comment. The "Oh yeah, I've tried IEMs and they're poo" (with freebie phone earphones), is a particular bug bear of mine. Guess what? Yeah, I have intimate experience of traditional back line too. I took a 10w 1x8 amp on a gig too. Awful. I couldn't hear it, there was no bass response. Anybody who would take a bass amp to a gig is an absolute idiot. Funny, isn't it? PS for the record, I used to gig with traditional backline. My last rig I bought was an EBS, with 4 2x10 cabs (hey portable 810 rig - how rock n roll!). I would sell them, if they were worth anything!

Shh! He's tried it - and it's rubbish. The justification is there in black and white!

You mean, you've never heard of Tye Zamora?

Ahem. Yes, that is the word Fender on the headstock.

"Tried this" What is it that you've tried? Using what?

Just kidding. Everybody can clearly see that the above amp is not gig ready. No. Thats why we need this - Bloody love that tagline! Couldn't be any more appropriate, right?

Hear me roar!!!

You'll tend to get interference being registered on a lot of audio devices. It's whether it audibly drops out or not that counts!

A back up in such high profile gigs are always a good idea... after all, IEM units can run out of batteries, or get signal loss if the RF environment is particularly hostile (or if somebody in the audience sabotages them with rogue RF transmission!). Of course, in most situations, the licenses are granted based on that fact that that area of the radio spectrum is free enough to deploy the amount of wireless required - this greatly minimises the risk of drop out due to RFI. Should probably mention that Metallica are probably using dual diversity IEMs - meaning there is less likely to be dropouts. I'm not sure what wireless they are using.. I'm guessing something like a Shure PSM1000 or Sennheiser 2000... I shall see if I can find out. EDIT: Looks like the Senn 2000 was utilised a while back - but dont know if thats still current. I would imagine they would try and keep on the same brand so the engineers can distribute the frequencies remotely over the network... I say this cos it looks like they are utilising Shure as their receivers in the racks. Should probably mention, those Meyer monitors are serious pieces of kit. One of those Meyer monitors would probably buy you two large boutique bass rigs. I seem to recall that Metallica actually developed these wedges directly with Meyer - I think that are 2x10s... which is quite an odd setup for a wedge.. but don't quote me on that one!