ARGH

JUST gigged in York...they loved us,fed us,bought our drinks,and paid over the usual rate,and booked us for more...several more. afterwards,it was the MOST genuine audience reaction Ive ever had,no just pissed up "you were great" ,it was said with heart..and a handshake,and a pat on the back. We were not super great,but functional,my achievement tonight,was that I did my 1st whole/entire gig on a 5 string,(and am now under direct orders to use it always from bandmembers) so thats a mountain climbed (my 1st fretted 5,bought 3 days ago!!). I floated back down the A64/A1 in sheer bliss.....Thankyou God,they dont come often,but when they do......!

[quote name='andy67' post='83298' date='Nov 3 2007, 08:54 PM']Argh - 100% behind you on all of that ranting!!! A recording studio is not the place to be creative nor experimental, time is money! all your hard work as a band should be done and completed in the practice room and finalised in the studio! Wasted some amounts of money in studios because of creative experimental vocalists and guitarists! I see it every day in my place of work - young students coming in telling me of software and effects they use at home to make up demos...all shallow with no real depth...however thats why I do what I do......[/quote] Sorry ,didnt think it was ranting,just common a sense soapbox moment..... been there..wasted time...done that...never again.

[quote name='Shaggy' post='82701' date='Nov 2 2007, 11:31 AM']Gotta say I find this discussion about recording (I won’t say “argument”), really interesting, worth a thread in its own right. From my limited experience of studio recording – which I dislike intensely – I find that whatever bass sound you try and create the engineer just whops the bass EQ setting up and it’s lost. I hadn’t really thought about active vs passive in a recording setting but I guess its true – the last time we recorded I took my active MM, but the slight earth hum that I can’t be arsed to suss out and usually mask with a bit of noise gate was highly audible when recording. So the engineer lent me his passive Wal Pro-bass – lurvely! – which to me sounded woolly, but in the mix was absolutely spot on. I’ll take the Precision next time! I think the gist of the thread is that if you find a P-bass playable then it’s a hell of sound to have in your arsenal, although versatile it’s not (in standard form). Also should have said before that upgrading the stock pick-ups (to wizards, SD’s etc) makes such a difference – same sound but with hi-fi definition and clarity.[/quote] To be versatile is a live nessessity,instrument wise...thats why I bang on about kids learning to use 5s and 6s as early as possible,because if you can play them you get more work available,you will be asked if you have them and thats fact,period,end of. Bands are different,your sound is a group thing,when you back someone you have to do something else,be it on an open mic,soft acoustic gig,or..well..whatever. But studios are a world away,and its sound we are dealing with not what you use...SOUND. You cant argue with something that works,Hey I dont like Rickys in weight or sound really,but if it worked,I'd close my eyes and play it as if my life depended upon it,because thats what is needed,be it a dano....upright,fretless (shudder).....9 string. I always remember the Kings X recordings,Doug Pinnick uses 12 string Hamers onstage,and EVERYONE thought thats what they heard on record,it wasnt ,it was a knackard 57 P-bass through a SansAmp. I still think on odd days of putting a J p/u in the bridge,but my guitarist keeps banging on at me about 'vintage' value..well its 11 years old now..... Ive modded my P,and its only let down is it dosent have a B string,and is VERY heavy!

[quote name='cheddatom' post='82706' date='Nov 2 2007, 11:38 AM']I just don't think that this idea of a precision=time saved is a fact. Maybe a precision+an engineer who always works with them/loves them will save time, and maybe most engineers love precisions, but that doesn't make it a fact. I've never been under pressure for time during a mix though, so I really should shut up![/quote] it isnt fact,its just interpretation,but the mainstay Ive found is that engineers know settings,they know how X (read: A Fender..or and EB3 or a Ricky) will need to be eqd through the board to fit a track,and that speed is time and money saved doing other things (like VOCAL BLOODY RETAKES!!!). Unfamilier equipment can add time,and budget,who really wants the potential of a difficult task in a day job,plus the player having the guilt that he took AGES! Because if it eats into guitarplayers solo overdubs,you aint going to hear the last of it. People like Comfort zones,Ive looked at your myspace..and you use a 6 string and a buttload of effects..now if I said "sorry fella but you cant use them and you have to play this..(Hands are Tom a 72 blonde Jazz)" It would be sh*t wouldnt it. Because you NEED those FX,You NEED that 6 string,because thats part of YOUR bands sound,to hand you a Fender..remove the pedals and say "Tough sh*t kid.." would just be wrong,criminal even,but thats just for one situation...one band. Im not saying its crap,but the engineer has probably never heard your band play or perform,and he's probably seen a million others wander in with 'This years latest" piece of technowhat,that probably sounds great in a bedroom,but is utter arse in the studio...and Muso REALLY wants to use it on a record..hense you got Yodaface. But its just one situation and you paid the money to the guy to get that on tape because thats what you needed. But bands are one offs,idiosyncratic,individual things....,and if an engineer can get a little ease on the session then thats one less thing for him to worry about. We aint talking New York or Memphis (if it aint a Fender go home attitude)...Even in the New Heavy Metal thang going on theres a constant (Lamb of God,Killswitch etc etc) and its SanAmps...they all use them to record. Thats the familier territory there. Im Glad you had the time to actually experiment with sounds,I rarely have that luxury,in mates studios..I get told.."we need this..and bring your SansAmp"..and X+songwriter,spend mins nitpicking the Basspart till they agree. Live its a different fix,I have to be Duck Dunn,Dee Dee Ramone,Herbie Flowers,and The Ox plus more in one hour onstage,Pubs functions etc..I need gear that wont breakdown,isnt delicate,fits most if not all situations,and can be set up and repaired and parts replaced quickly...we are talking versatility and the Fender seems to have that most,be it on classic R'n'B or Hardcore punk,plus point being no battery to die on the wedding gig (ever been there..60 miles from home.....for got the spare Bass..No 9 volts to hand..thats fun). Heres a spin on the point..... Geddy Lee,used Wals and Steinys in the 80s/90s,debatably the BEST active recording Bass's on the planet,silent,phat ,juicey...yummy...tonally wonderful,and very maliable for an engineer. And then he switches to a ratty passive 70s Jazz? go figure.....

[quote name='cheddatom' post='82681' date='Nov 2 2007, 10:41 AM']P.P.S I know i'm comming accross as an arrogrant young student type, sorry! I do genuinley have a lot of respect for people who know a lot more in the way of recording than me, and i'm sure that you're one of them.[/quote] Dude no probs,I just go on what I get told to do,and by what works..and by the bitchiness and bitterness of Engineering staff and lecturers and experience's Ive come across in the years. Ive always preferred to play live,its just the biggest thing or rather the most constant,has been time and its consequenses with cost. It wasnt a pop at you personally,Im not that evil.

Ahh..the Yoda look...kinda like that real ale drinker look

[quote name='SJA' post='82668' date='Nov 2 2007, 10:05 AM']another thought- when playing solo, a precision can sound ratty and crude when strung with steel roundwounds, but great in the mix in a rock context, with heavy guitars. IMO Colin Hodgkinson's solo bass playing would sound a lot better with a bass with a bridge pickup too rather than his single-pickup precision. I've seen pics of him using a stingray- never heard him use it, but i'd bet his chordal playing would sound better on it. whereas more sophisticated active basses can sound great solo, but those nuances are lost in the mix with guitars and drums. Dave Ellefson (Megadeth) says that he uses the active precision deluxe live, but a passive 70's p in the studio as he's found active basses disappear in the mix.[/quote] Im gonna be really patronizing here. But I geuinely think its because alot of 'engineers'..the newbies...sitting in front of their screens,from college,uni etc...that cant mic up for toffee and wouldnt know how to...they even dont want to learn full stop The Cubase generation,just plug ANYTHING into a Basspod and then adjust on the screen. Of course it sounds great,but its 0 and 1s you are listening to,not a Bass. I had a music college lecturer from Bradford,40odd years from making tea at the BBC to building studios..you get my drift, in my shop a year back,and he'd just quit teaching because,basically,he got fed up that kids want to bypass the basics,and just plug things into boxes,go wild with the eqs and wonder why its just mush....you can get a great guitar sound..wow..now record a brass band,see..you aint that good yet. I come from the era of splicing tape (probably the last generation to be that way) and mics,a good DI and everyone in the room together playing (bar the drummer...and the singer..locked in their booths either end of the room. Analogue..you HAD to make it work,it took time,and the results are there for the ages. Kids cant mic and just use triggers....so the Roland or whatevers being used,dies on a gig..what now??? In a bedroom,anything can be assessed and adjusted,rewound and replayed,rerecorded until perfection,a good engineer can record anything and make it sound great,but live its a different kettle of fish. I know times moved on,and the worlds a faster place now,but basics are basics,and If the source you record,takes ages or expensive time to get down or eq,you aint getting called back,same with gear onstage,I dont want to take 10 mins with an engineer getting my Bass to sound right,when I can just put on my P bass and its there in a blink,and he can move onto the drums (back to mic technique..)..of which we go back to the triggers thing. Im not dissing other basses,why on earth would I have the want for a 9 string,active fretless's..a status homemade hybridthingy thats jazzy and flashy as f***,etcetc....Leo got it very right,there is time to move on,and the P or J has been surpassed,by such instruments as the Lakland,but they are decendents,if not in look then in sound,and they SOUND the same,just clearer....better?...is it?..then why do we still have passive instruments?... because ,however crude they sound,and lets be honest,a great basstone on record sounds a tad rank isolated,..it in the mix a passive sounds right and can be made to 'sit' and be recorded quickly.

[quote name='cheddatom' post='82657' date='Nov 2 2007, 09:19 AM']If an engineer is thanking god because you've brought him a familiar instrument he knows how to work with, then I think there's something wrong with the way the engineer is looking at his job. He should be interested to hear new instruments and relish the challenge of getting them to sound great, not getting them to sound like a fender. I like precisions, I just don't buy into all this "definitive bass sound hype", if you know what I mean.[/quote] yeahman..you really have time to experiment with 'sounds' in a 15-20 mins changeover in front of 2k+ of pissed bikers at a 3 day rally...,and in a studio,time is money,full stop...ESP on demos for bands whos bills come by the hour. I dont work in Nashville (who have Alembic and Modulus settings) and in the past Ive made the mistake of bringing an uberactive 6 string superthing and wasteing alot of time getting it to 'sit' in the mix,considering the amount of work and professional output from the studio I was in and it being a name engineer,who at the end of the day 'knows' his board and equipment etc etc as I said before Time is money,but I dont want to take up as much it did to get it to sound right. Cheap or noisey eqs or just bad bass's or people that eq they're instrument to death THEN cancel out everything on their rig (duh) when the engineer can sculpt your instrument to suit the studio or the track with the clock tickking quickly.....I know what option I would take. I know what you are thinking ,its dumb as sh*t that Engineers/producers etc,cant just make ANYTHING sound great,man you can spend over a K.5 on a prestiege range Ibanez or Warwick or Spector,thats rammed with Bartolini or 18v EMGs,and thats great live..hell I LOVE EMGs,got them in one of my fretless's and they rip. But the fact is this,if it takes less time,and it works,and the guy getting the tracks down to tape can do his job quickly or quicker than the last guy,at a better standard,and you contribute to that...and the results are there to see,and the band are smiling and it JUST PLAIN WORKS Well,where do you see this going?

[quote name='martthebass' post='82494' date='Nov 1 2007, 08:28 PM']Isn't a Stingray just a 'super P' with a silly scratch plate [/quote] Isnt a G&L ASAT a Stingray with an extra Pickup,and weird body?

[quote name='metaltime' post='82456' date='Nov 1 2007, 07:04 PM']I dont really like p basses. i dont like the sound or the look at all i. dont no i just dont get it i guess[/quote] Rickys cause the same divide...I can understand,some lads were slagging me chronic for playing a P..for being "Thats old mannnnnnnn" (clutching their Ibanez Geetarr Jems) but hey,Im still playing a P every now and again,and they cant complain about the sound.

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='82405' date='Nov 1 2007, 05:43 PM']Or find a 2nd hand Lakland BG, a better substitute for the real thing Peter[/quote] Better still get a Sadowsky or a Mike Lull. But really,If it aint the real thing,kinda why?

[quote name='cheddatom' post='82212' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:41 PM']I consider myself to be a bit of a recording engineer, and my comment was made with my engineer's hat on.[/quote] Fine man,but Im just going on the comments Ive got and been given.......including "Oh thank god,a Fender..."

[quote name='andy67' post='82313' date='Nov 1 2007, 02:59 PM']any clips or vids link?[/quote] Sadly..nothing I know of exists,of saying decent 'clear' quality,of Rogers playing on film. [url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cYLwCSWfQ_g"]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cYLwCSWfQ_g[/url] [url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Ku18m9BKY"]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Ku18m9BKY[/url] You can try those,but his playing is unclear,as is ..well...him..Im still searching,but I can only find vids with Tony Choy (himself a VERY accomplished player)But Roger was METAL as METAL can be. This is I deny [url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5ElZTB6AWV4"]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5ElZTB6AWV4[/url] I just wish I had footage to show you,theres some amazing pics of him in 'mid'bang onstage,ripped jeans and Warlock in hand,he was very Cliffesque with the slightly out of phase look,but just an awsome player!

Roger Patterson of Atheist Guy got killed by a drunk driver in about feb 91....one lp recorded and one written (Piece of time and Unquestionable presence) Genuinly one of the most versitile and tightest bassists within a genre that features too few bright stars (that beingDeath/Thrash metal). Easily more acomplished than say...Cliff Burton and tonally more upfront in the mix,but Cliff got 3 lps in before his passing,Patterson had only 1 and some demos. Cue up the intro to 'I deny' as the best example! great work.

[quote name='cheddatom' post='82204' date='Nov 1 2007, 12:33 PM']I really don't buy all this hype. I can get a good sound to cut through using a Fender, or a Yamaha, or a Schecter, or an Ibanez or...........[/quote] Same here onstage,but in the studio its a totally different arena. Ive tried Ibanez and warwicks...numerous stuff,but the Fender sound just...well it fits,they are bulky,heavy,and crude...but they work,and engineers smile when they come out of the case.

[quote name='BigRedX' post='81860' date='Oct 31 2007, 06:09 PM']Paul, I have mixed feelings about CT basses. There are aspects that are great such as the upper horn scroll/hook design, and there's no denying that these are quality sounding and playing basses, but sometimes I think the details let it down - for instance the over-thick wood binding on the fingerboard and the Wishbass-eque jack socket mounting. I believe that when you get to this level of build/cost in an instrument it's the attention to detail and overall aethetics that separates one luthier from another.[/quote] Go and pick one up,play it.....now put it down Now say sorry for even saying...NO THINKING such thoughts.

[quote name='SJA' post='82178' date='Nov 1 2007, 11:32 AM']one thing I've found is that if a producer/engineer manages to lose a p bass in the mix in a rock track, then it's proof they're utterly useless.[/quote] Thats why when I first EVER went into the studio,the guy looked at what I had and handed me an ash bodied 70s P. If you have a Fender the rest is easy! If a soundguy/or girl,cant get a half decent tone from a Leo designed bass,then they aint worth salt!

[quote name='Subthumper' post='81353' date='Oct 30 2007, 05:14 PM']Does no one have a favourite crap amp?At practice I'm currently using a very old peavey century amp head with an unknown 1x15 cab.Its a box of farts but if you get the controls just right it has a great "old" tone.Though I must agree I'd rather use my own gear,theres just not enough room to bring it in.[/quote] Rank old Peavey MK3s with half the eq knobs missing or bent...worn 100w combos with shot 15" speakers and tweeters that fizz...DISTORTOMATIC!!

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='80762' date='Oct 29 2007, 12:09 PM']Some lovely old P tone courtesy of QOTSA: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dy56iQd6Jg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dy56iQd6Jg[/url][/quote] That was a bit tasty....all warm and boxy

[quote name='chris_b' post='80732' date='Oct 29 2007, 11:21 AM']For all the people who agreed with a). No, Leo made a good bass, but didn't get it right first time because he quickly made significant changes to the first Precision. He came up with practically a new bass by changing the pickup, body shape and bridge. Fender, then CBS, have changed everything else several times over the years so don't think that point a) is anywhere near accurate. I think that since the 70's the Jazz has been recorded more than the Precision, so the Jazz is probably the sound of choice to most people these days.[/quote] Cant agree with that,because the 'studio' bands were kinda on the wane at that point,Actives were coming in,musical genres springing up everywhere,and alot more choice was around regarding just Bass's in general... Saying that given the 'Bands' thang at the time,most Bassists would and have used a Fender P at some time or another,if not maybe a J.

Ignore all the above... Get a SansAmp and a Metalzone..either that or a TurboRat. VERY VERY nasty...but the Metalzone was the Blackmetal pedal of choice in the 90s. And I welcome anyone that uses Tech21 products!!

[quote name='grosa' post='80303' date='Oct 28 2007, 04:16 AM']I got given an early 70's p as a gift from my uncle just after a decided i wanted an electric,as i started on a diddy upright at age 7. i didnt like p's then and i dont like them now. not trying to rattle anyones cage,i just dont like them.i always prefered the jazz.[/quote] I agree theres 2 camps...you cant get the mwah richness from a P like you can In a Jazz and Fretless P's are just not as nice as the J's equivilent..BUT If you want sheer aggro and UGHHH (scientific terms here) P's win hands down.

The only real beef I have with P's is they weigh a ton,and you have to modify them to get a better sound out of them...again personal taste,and yes they are ok..and JUST ok out of the box,and I would have one over a Jazz any day. The balance is shot,they have dead spots,classic problems (sharp notes,flat notes) and you have real difficulty getting strings that go through the body that are long enough.... Compared to anything else..little was as good at the time..Gibson EB1?? ..Rickys in the 60s.... Hofners? Even bigger hypothetical question would be that IF Leo came up with a Bass NOW (After his G&L ASAT..the best fretted 5 string Ive EVER played) would it be or have as much an impact in todays climate of overpriced custom made Instruments and cheap imported oriental tat?

[quote name='andy67' post='79939' date='Oct 26 2007, 08:18 PM']irony id dead long live sarcasm....? horses for courses mate, see it year in year out with my job....this year students appear to be falling for 450 watt berhinger bass heads and 4x10 cabs............[/quote] Yeah and 3 years back it was all musicman Subs...and PRS's for the guitarists,Eden rigs..or SWR... Its geographical,this.

Is irony dead...? Trends seem to come from whos playing what in the limelight..... I find Line6 gear to be greta for recording,but not for live work....Gimme Tech21 anyday!