endorka

Brilliant, that must be a real buzz :-) Looking forward to seeing the photos! Jennifer

I must confess that my experience of bridge adjusters differs to that of the previous posters. It is the overwhelming concensus that rather than impeding sound vibrations from the strings to the body of the instrument, aluminium bridge adjusters actually enhance it, as metal tends to conduct sound better than wood. Even though we don't have the extremes of temperature in the UK as the US, I have noticed the string height of my bass changing over time. Bridge adjusters allow you to compensate for this. If you play different styles of music, the adjusters can change the string height to suit in a matter of minutes. High action for orchestra, lowish for amplified jazz or big band, medium to high for unamplfied jazz, for example. They are useful for those learning the instrument, in the sense that you will spend a lifetime learning the instrument :-) Jennifer

[quote name='Beedster' post='866807' date='Jun 14 2010, 10:36 AM']The main problem I felt was that at times it sounded too much like an electric bass. I'm guessing that there's a number of potential reasons for this, relating to EQ, action, strings, and playing style... The action feels pretty easy to me, that is, I was able to play the entire length of the neck for about 2 hours without any finger pain yesterday.[/quote] If you've only had 30 mins flying time on an upright bass, and you can play for two hours without any finger pain, I'd say it is almost certain that the action is too low to be sounding like an acoustic double bass. I am not an advocate of "no pain no gain", but the action must be a certain height to allow you to get a decent amount of finger meat under the strings when doing jazz type pizzicato. For example, the action on my DB is moderate, but sufficient; at the 12th "fret" of the G string, it is 5mm under the string. Right hand pizzicato technique may need to be examined - if you are playing it like a bass guitar, it will sound like a bass guitar. To get the classic jazz pizz tone, you should use the side of the fingers rather than the tips. This is quite an involved thing, I made a recent post with a link to a Ray Brown masterclass where he describes it quite well. Will see if I can find it again. Jennifer

Just seen your similar thread on talkbass, where there are various dire prognostications :-) The first one seems to be about the problems of using a standard thumb screw endpin tightener with the carbon fibre rod; I don't have any advice on this point as the endpin holder on my double bass came equipped with the sleeve type tightener rather than the thumbscrew, and it has worked fine. The second one would appear to be about the bendability of carbon fibre versus steel. I use 10mm carbon fibre rod (as opposed to tube), and haven't noticed it bending, although I only have the endping set at about 5", so perhaps this is something that one might notice if you used a significantly longer endpin? I'm not sure it would, as it seems pretty tough material to me. It would be interesting to hear feedback from others. Jennifer

I did exactly this a month or so ago, with good results. It is easy to replace the old endpin with the carbon fibre rod, although it was a little bit snug at first, but has loosened off a bit with use. As claimed by some luthiers, it has also made my double bass louder. The only hassle I've had is that the carbon fibre rod doesn't have a stop on the end, so it can disappear inside the bass. Fortunately it is easy enough to retrieve the rod by pushing it all the way through with a pencil then getting it out an f-hole, but this could be avoided by putting a rubber foot on the endpin... which should probably be done anyway. I have some spare 10mm carbon fibre rod left over from my experiments - if you let me know what length you require I'll send it on to you. Jennifer

It can be done, but it is difficult to explain in words - but Ray Brown can do so with moving pictures; [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8QazNAZjhM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8QazNAZjhM[/url] At various points throughout this you can see him do exactly what you ask about. It is well worth watching the whole of this series of videos IMHO. I find that as the tempos get very fast, the hand gets less side on and more perpendicular to the strings, i.e. it gets more like playing a bass guitar. At slow/medium tempos I use both fingers combined into one megafinger to get a real good tone. Jennifer

[quote name='fatgoogle' post='857675' date='Jun 4 2010, 08:54 PM']What strings are good for both arco and pizz, but more arco. And light, medium, heavy, whats the realy difference their. Around 120[/quote] I use the Helicore Hybrid medium gauge, which are well within your budget from Thomann. I find them very good: pizzicato tone recorded through mic here: [url="http://programmes.stv.tv/the-hour/news-gossip/128148-horse-performs-her-song-heaven-can-wait/"]http://programmes.stv.tv/the-hour/news-gos...eaven-can-wait/[/url] arco/pizz tone recorded through BP100 pickup here: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3nugtKjDo4&feature=player_embedded"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3nugtKjDo4...player_embedded[/url] I found the BP100 ok for pizz, but not that great for arco, and have since then moved onto a Realist pickup. Apparently the lighter gauge of the Helicore Hybrids are more suitable for arco, as they "start" more easily. [quote]Would an adjustable bridge be worth the extra money, i have to get this bridge replaced anyway as someone put ebony feet on it which deadens it a bit and it needs to be re-radiused to match the fingerboard and to make bowing easier. Are they useful?[/quote] I find an adjustable bridge very useful - the bass tends to "speak" at its best at a certain bridge height, and with the adjusters it is easy to determine this. If you play a lot of arco and pizz it is also easier to find the best compromise for string height with the bridge adjusters. Also, the string height seems to vary over time, presumably with the seasons. With bridge adjusters this can be corrected. [quote]Currently theirs a fishman bp-100 that doesnt really seem to suit it, its a bit raspy, Anyone want to buy it from me. I was looking at a shadow and an upton pickup. again around 120.[/quote] Pickups are a very personal choice, and their performance seems to vary depending on the instrument the are on. The best thing you can do is to try one in action on your instrument before buying, if possible. [quote]Also my teacher says i really need to get a new bow, now im not sure how much better, but i want to get the bass fully playable first. Are these carbon bows any good, their around 100 which sounds good, or should is stick with a wooden bow ive been lookin at some Gewa's.[/quote] I have one of the Yita "top model" carbon fibre bows - it is very good, highly recommended. [quote]Also last but not least, rosin. Im using petz but its very sticky and gets everywhere and has a very bright tone. something less sticky and more dark would be nice.[/quote] A lot of people around here use Nyman's. Jennifer

I think I'll be in agreement with Bilbo here - while I've occassionally become fascinated with certain musicians for a while, my biggest influence would be the music as a whole. I do a lot of arrangements for various types of ensemble, for example a couple of years ago I spent a solid week to transcribing and re-arranging all the instrumentation for five classic Dusty Springfield songs. What an education - I was never the same again! Nothing beats getting your ear right into the centre of the music in this way. There is so much to be gained from the totality of the music... even from a bass perspective, it helps if you understand the greater musical context that the line was working in. Jennifer

[quote name='TPJ' post='846621' date='May 24 2010, 04:27 PM']Are these skills you've gained using the book mentioned earlier? I admire your courage to tackle some of these. I'd love to be able to adjust my sound post with confidence, knowing I wasn't going to break anything. Common sense and knowledge are a necessity, but not necessarily in that order.[/quote] I've gained most of them from the book - one or two of the simpler tasks I did (or could have done) using common sense, but there is no way I would have attempted the more complex tasks such as fitting the bridge adjusters or moving the soundpost without referring to it! Jennifer

[quote name='Faithless' post='837736' date='May 14 2010, 11:16 PM']Forget amps, effects, basses and all other stuff. What will make you, and, more important, your band sound full and huge, is learning how to work with others. It's not only you, that make you sound full and huge. It's also other members of the band. Most important, the drummer. The [i]hugeness [/i]comes from [i]tightness[/i]. You wouldn't believe, how a good drummer enhances bassist. And vice versa. once again, forget about gear, concentrate on process.[/quote] This is SO true. Jennifer

[quote name='Doddy' post='837830' date='May 15 2010, 01:39 AM']I find that by plucking lighter,I get a fuller,louder sound than if I start plucking hard.I also have pretty high action,which I find gives a better tone and more volume,but makes it harder to play up in thumb position. If you pluck too hard,you tend to 'choke' the sound more than if you would if you were to play lighter. I read an old BP interview with Christian McBride and Chris Wood,and they talked about this.[/quote] Yes, definitely. I also find there is a point of diminishing returns where I can be plucking the beejesus out of the instrument, getting maybe 10% more volume for 200% more effort. Learning not to do this pointless exercise when the volume gets high is worthwhile. [quote]As far as drummers,I love playing with a good brush player. The problem is a lot of drummers nowadays, don't know how to play with them.Brush playing is an art in itself.[/quote] So true. I love doing acoustic gigs, and have never understood why some drummers become negative when you ask them to play with brushes. Jennifer

I'm quite happy to offer suggestions, but they'd all be based around the book I've already plugged on the other current double bass thread, and I don't want to become a bore :-) There are quite a few things you can do that will improve the volume of the double bass in there, and I can vouch that they worked on my bass. Some are partly to do with reducting the weight of the instrument, meaning the strings have less mass to vibrate, and can therefore move more air. One suggestion is to replace the steel endpin with a wooden one - a drumstick is suggested, but the existing endpin holder on my DB was only 10mm in diameter, and dowel of this size was too weak. 10mm carbon fibre rod works well though, and I definitely noted an improvement in volume, as did others in the orchestra. Optimising the bridge will help - ensure that it is correctly positioned, and that the feet are flush on the body. The centre of the feet should align with the inner notches on the f-holes. Try not to have any extra hardware such as pickups on the bridge, as they act as mutes. If you have the jack socket for the pickup mounted on the afterlength it wll interfere with the resonance of the instrument, so put it somewhere else, such as on the tailpiece. Tuning the afterlength - the part of the strings between the bridge and tailpiece - can have some interesting effects. Get bridge adjusters installed and you can easily change the string height, which usually affects the volume. Note that higher does not always mean louder, as the bass can sometimes become "choked". Moving the soundpost relative to the bridge can change the tone and relative volume of each string. It is fairly involved but it does work; I found that by going for a less deep tone, the power of the instrument was moved towards the overtones, and it sounded brighter and louder, the sound I was after. There are probably some other easy and cheap tweaks, I'll post if I remember any. Most of these are fairly incremental, and each will generate some improvement if done correctly. It can take a bit of tinkering to find the best setup for each factor, but when they were all optimised and combined the increase in volume was substantial. You'll know you are on the right track when your bass becomes more prone to feedback when ampified - this essentially means your instrument has become a more efficient resonator. Quickest of all: it may also be worth examining your pizzicato technique to see if you are getting the most from the instrument; ensure you are playing with the sides of your fingers, using the weight of the forearm to pull the fingers through the string, and play nearer to the end of the fingerboard to make the sound punchier and help it cut through. Jennifer

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='836772' date='May 14 2010, 01:22 AM']Don't you need a lot of specialist tools and a sizeable workshop to do your own bass maintenance though?[/quote] It would certainly help for the really serious stuff, but you can do a lot with normal tools. Off the top of my head, things I've done are; Saddle repair Nut filing Cut the bridge properly and adjusted string spacing Fitted bridge height adjuster wheels Soundpost adjustment Open seam repair Steel endpin replaced with carbon fibre Afterlength tuning Removal of varnish from back of neck There are probably more but my brain is hurting! It's all good stuff and there is a lot of potential for tweaking many factors on a double bass to get the optimum sound. Jennifer

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='836015' date='May 13 2010, 11:26 AM']I just checked this is on amazon as it sounds like the kind of book I could benefit from - current price is over £80! [/quote] It may seem expensive, but by showing me how to do repairs and modifications properly, it has paid for itself many times over, and my bass now sounds how I like it to sound, not someone else's idea of what it should sound like - priceless! Jennifer

The state of that bridge!!!!! :-) Sounds like a great project. There is a lot to do though - I would recommend you get Chuck Traeger's "Setup And Repair of the Double Bass for Optimum Sound" - it tells you exactly how to go about doing what you need. I've used this book with great results for all kinds of tweaking and repairs on my own double bass. You mention terror at the prospect of fixing the bridge, but it is probably the simplest thing to fix... Jennifer

That's great, congratulations! Rent has some great bass parts, I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Jennifer

[quote name='richrips' post='829128' date='May 5 2010, 11:11 PM']....and i guess the upright brigade will be after my blood as well.....[/quote] Only up to a point. While my experience would certainly indicate that the best way to become fluent and in tune on the double bass is to learn positions of notes by using the ear and the "feel" of the location your hand is in, I don't think it is so clear cut on the fretless bass guitar. While some of this involves proprioceptory sense, there are aspects of the double bass that assist this development; it is quite easy to find the location of the Ab, A and Bb on the G string by reference to the nut, and D, D#, E, F, F# and G on the G string can easily be found by reference to the position of the thumb in the neck heel. Sometimes even Db can be located this way, and I can also get the high Ab and A from another position locater. This leaves only a "no man's land" of B and C on the G string, which you can (usually) get by reference to the more secure positions. However, there are no such physical guides on the fretless bass, other than the nut, so I think the argument for fret markers or side position dots is stronger than that on the DB/Cello/Violin/Viola. I'd be interested to hear how others develop their proprioceptory sense/muscle memory on the fretless bass in the absence of such guides. Jennifer

[quote name='Gray' post='817470' date='Apr 24 2010, 07:42 PM']Just out of interest - given that I own what I was told is a 1/4 Size Double Bass (36'' Scale) what is the size of this ? 1/16 th ?[/quote] It's difficult to judge from the picture, but according to [url="http://www.doublebassguide.com/?page_id=3"]http://www.doublebassguide.com/?page_id=3[/url] the following sizes are indicated based on scale length; 41.4" = 3/4 38.2" = 1/2 35.4" = 1/4 27.6" = 1/16 ...which would make the 1/16 scale length about the same as a cello. Jennifer

Nice one :-) Based on similar logic, I sometimes think of my bass guitar as a "single bass", but I suppose that is what the cello is really :-) Jennifer

It is indeed a (small) double bass - as the double bass is descended from the viol family of instruments, as opposed to the violin, the shoulders of the instrument have a far steeper slope than those of a cello; vs. Note also the metal worm screw tuning pegs on the double bass as opposed to wooden friction type pegs on the cello. Interesting bow & left hand technique though... Jennifer

[quote name='El Bajo' post='812534' date='Apr 20 2010, 01:38 PM']... you can hear that it all sounds a bit trebly and dry which he will mix when everythinsg recorded. [url="http://www.mymusicstream.com/raisingangels/"]http://www.mymusicstream.com/raisingangels/[/url][/quote] Nice playing, and the tone sounds great to me - you can hear the bass clearly, which is not always the case in this type of music. You think it's a bit trebly, but if anything I'd say it could be a bit more trebly/middly to help it cut through, especially once the keys are in place. But that's just my opinion! :-) Jennifer

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='808192' date='Apr 16 2010, 11:11 AM']Something to left-field for you all to chew on, though - the Bass Doc once told me one of the best ways to get an URBish tone is to solo the bridge pickup(!), crank the volume and play over the neck.[/quote] There may be some logic in this, at least with respect to an amplified double bass tone, as most double bass pickups, albeit piezo rather than magnetic, are located on or near the bridge of the instrument. Jennifer

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='805832' date='Apr 14 2010, 11:03 AM']Oddly enough there is a turn up at the end of the board, which is 'extra' to what I would expect for the normal relief in the neck; i.e. when I finger the string around the 2nd octave the strings bottom out against the fingerboard.[/quote] That's the one. I don't recall playing anything that high for real on the WAV so it hasn't been significant. I suppose it could be planed if it became a problem. [quote]When you discuss 6 - 8mm is that with the bass at rest so to speak and what might one expect the distance from string to 12th fret to fingerboard be if you fretted the string at the 24th fret (Oooops hope using the term 'frets' isn't a major faux pa when discussing uprights )?[/quote] These measures are taken without any notes being fingered on the strings - I think the measurement you are speaking of will give you the amount of relief in the neck, which is a different measure. Re: the preamp issue, in theory it is all due to the impedance of the preamp on your amplifier, which needs to be higher than that required for a bass guitar. It should be at least 1 megohm to get the optimum sound, and my amp, an Eden WT330, meets this requirement. However, I've also obtained good results using the WAV with older amplifies, which probably didn't meet this, such as a Trace Elliot commando, which gave an amazing sound, so YMMV. As you say, I think experimentation and try before you buy is the best approach. Jennifer

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='805792' date='Apr 14 2010, 10:15 AM']I'm not sure what sort of action to expect on an EUB... is there a consensus on what a 'normal' (subjective I know) action should be?[/quote] The closer you get the action to that of an acoustic double bass, the more it will sound like an acoustic double bass. A lower action will have a greater propensity to make the instrument sound like a fretless bass guitar. I have a WAV myself and the action as setup from the factory was nowhere near high enough; however, it was quite good to get started on the instrument. If you want to get a decent jazz pizzicato, the strings will need to be sufficiently high off the fingerboard for the meat on the side of the fingers to get a good purchase. There is a recent thread on talkbass discussing jazz pizz technique; [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=644444"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=644444[/url] An ideal action depends on several factors, not least the type of music you play and whether you are playing ampified or not, which is not relevant in this case, but according to Chuck Traeger a good setup would have the G string at 6mm off the end of the fingerboard going to 8mm on the E string, with the others inbetween those. I think my WAV may have had a slight curve upwards towards the end of the fingerboard, which is not common on acoustic double basses, so if yours has this you may have to raise the strings a little higher than those figures. At one time I recall having the action on my WAV as high as it would go, and it wasn't as high as the double bass I owned at that time! PS, if you want the instrument to sound like a double bass, always use the "arco" setting, even when playing pizz. Jennifer

Brilliant - I have been coveting this bass for some time, something I hardly ever do with instruments. What an amazing looking bass, and it's great to hear it plays well too :-) Jennifer