Eight

I recently bought one of those grip/finger/callus builder things and its actually helping quite a lot. £16 from a shop, can be had for much less online.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='481970' date='May 7 2009, 01:50 PM']Marco Hietala uses a Warwick Pro Tube XI, which would set you back a grand on its own.[/quote] He's a big show off that one! But then playing in a band like that, he can no doubt afford it. [quote]I hope that helps.[/quote] You've been a star mate, cheers.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='481918' date='May 7 2009, 01:18 PM']Can you describe to me the kind of sound you're looking for (as in "a bit like Rex from Pantera" or "more like the dude from Tool") and I'll have a look to see if there's a useful starting point for you?[/quote] At the risk of sounding like a fanboy (as he happens to also play a Vampyre) - I would probably say Marco Hietala from Nightwish has a pretty useful sound for me. Wouldn't sound hugely out of place in a death metal band, but really excels with that lovely deep bassy rumble in symphonic/power metal bands. [quote name='chris_b']I have no idea what "burly lows" means but an LM2 has a ton of bass.[/quote] Hahah, no I don't know either but it sounded good. Lol. Other than that comment, I was really getting into the idea of the MarkBass heads. Edit: I'll make sure I try one I think.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='481861' date='May 7 2009, 12:44 PM']The only other way I could think of would be to take a DI out and run them dry into a studio desk through flat-response monitors. But even then, as much as you'd have some basis of comparison, they'd still sound totally different depending on what bass cab you run 'em through.[/quote] Hmm. I was thinking that say if I walked into a big shop which had like twenty different amps and a dozen or so cabs; would I be able to use headphones to get a basic sound out of the amp, enough to say like "ok these three have more boom in the low end than those so I'll try them with cabs". Or might I find that some amps sound like they have no low with headphones, but are great compared to others when used with cabs? This is all so complicated.

Seems like those Barefaced cabs are quite highly rated on here then? No Alex, you don't get to respond to that. I was liking the MarkBass LMII until the Bass Player review mentioned it didn't have "burly" lows. Still, might try their gear if I can. BTW If you're testing amps, many don't seem to have a headphone out so what would be the best way to approach comparing them? Since running them through a cab is also going to give you the characteristics of the speakers right? Maybe you found the perfect head but the cab let it down and you moved on unknowingly.

Thanks for all the info Max - that's really helping and very much appreciated. You're probably right about EQ. The less I have to f*ck a mix up with, the better. [quote name='maxrossell' post='481751' date='May 7 2009, 11:18 AM']A lot of amps come with all sorts of gubbins like inbuilt compressors and even basic octavers, but I don't know if you'd be into all that.[/quote] Compressors, yes. At least I know what they are and vaguely how to use them (used software ones in DAWs) but I'd be fine with getting an external unit if it happened that the right amp for me didn't have a built-in compressor. Most other fancy features I probably wouldn't know I needed until the time came.

I'm a kind a low, rumbling kind of bass guy - although I have no idea if I need good mid/high response to get the full growl out or whether that will all come from lows as well. And no idea what kind of speakers etc. would be needed to cut through a wall of guitar noise if I ended up playing alongside two of the ego maniacs. Do you think 300-500W would be a good power range to look for?

[quote name='maxrossell' post='481702' date='May 7 2009, 10:28 AM']That's a lot of bank, dude. That'll get you something very decent.[/quote] Too much for what I need? Or about right do you think? Obviously I'd rather not spend money needlessly but will spend what it is required (or what I can) to get the right tools. Plus I look at it like this, expensive bass running through sh*tty cheap amp means I wasted money on my bass. [quote]Have you considered Warwick bass amps? In theory at least they'd be a pretty good match for Warwick basses.[/quote] I've looked at them online, but don't know anything about them other than they look pretty good and don't seem bad money. Part of me likes the idea of all Warwick gear too.

So, I have basses I love (Cort Curbow4 & Warwick Vampyre SN), the effects pedals I want (but don't use that much, EH Bass Blogger & Hell Babe wah) and more music related computer sh*t than I know what to do with (literally). This means one thing... I'm gassing so bad for an amp/cab. But how do you know what to buy!?!?! I can't possibly try them all in every combination so could do with pointing in the right direction first. I have been thinking about joining a band recently - not quite yet, but sooner or later. So I'd be after something practical for this. Chances are that'd mean something powerful enough for small/medium sized gigs (I'm never going to play Wembley). It'd also most likely be a metal band and would want a rig that complements the Warwick tone (I *love* that growl, and I'm pretty sure my next bass would be a Warwick as well) in lowish (C is my favourite) tunings. For the head I'm thinking solid state. Lighter (?) and less faff. I'm not a music tech guy really. No idea about wattage either. DI out thingy sounds useful. Cab(s) - I really don't know. Light weight is good and wheels would be great (they seem like a sensible idea anyway). Budget probably up to £1000 (prefer to spend less, could spend more) - I don't even know if this is a good amount to be considering. I am totally out of my depth in this one - the only thing I know about amps etc. is Behringer are crap; and Ashdowns might burst into flames (apparently ). Whilst I'm not in a hurry to buy, I would like to get some idea what I might want so I can try them and research etc. etc. Cheers.

Good luck. And let us know how you get on.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='480917' date='May 6 2009, 12:55 PM']There are 100 opportunities on offer. Fifty of them require reading. Another fifty of them don't require reading, but do, on the other hand, require expertise in operating ProTools (for instance). So sure, I can't get the ones that require reading, but I can get the ones that require ProTools.[/quote] Fine. Yes, there are jobs for your skills - of course. I'm not suggesting your skills aren't impressive or valuable. Assuming we both wanted to take that path - I would have to know ProTools. That would be a given for the role in the same way as you might be expected to have developed ears as a musician. But as a reader I *also* have access to the other 50 jobs. You may not want those jobs - that's cool. My points have never been about *you* needing to read to do what you want to do (that's your call not mine); simply that reading gives me a bit of added flexibility and doesn't impact my ability to use my ears/ProTools.

[quote name='rjb' post='480832' date='May 6 2009, 12:05 PM']Doesn't bother me. They'll still be very different basses. The exotic woods will be reserved for the German models.[/quote] I know I'm fighting a slightly childish tendency (from myself) on this one. At one point I was looking to buy a Rockbass and remember thinking how much I hated that logo so I do get the move.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='480909' date='May 6 2009, 12:52 PM']I thought I was more insulting than belittling??[/quote] Ok yes, that's a fair point. So the opportunities for readers are to be belittling. Non readers can be insulting. Sorted.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='480879' date='May 6 2009, 11:32 AM']Belittle people on bass forums.[/quote] But you do that all the time without reading skills.

[quote name='mcgraham' post='480862' date='May 6 2009, 11:20 AM']I do apologise. That statement came across a lot more 'teacher-ish' than it was intended. It was more a generally directed comment rather than a specific 'warning' to you. [/quote] Ah, no problem. Just jumped on that because this thread is so crazy, its hard for one person to put an opinion forward without picking up the rest of the baggage. Got paranoid and assumed you were lumping me in with every other reader (not all of whom I agree with on all their points).

[quote name='mcgraham' post='480862' date='May 6 2009, 11:20 AM']The thing is, they use their improvisational ability far more than their reading ability. So those readers who have a balance of both skills even seem to implicitly acknowledge a good ear is used more often than good reading skills. Note: I did not say they imply it's less valuable, just used less often in their musical pursuits. Again, horses for courses.[/quote] Yes, absolutely. Whether reading is important or not, does not change the importance of good ear work. No reader should sensibly suggest that notation is a replacement for ears. It is actually a skill for a different task (although overlaps do occur as we've seen).

Leave the superior aspect out - I've never said anything along those lines. [quote name='maxrossell' post='480851' date='May 6 2009, 11:15 AM']rslaing has access to all the opportunities reading brings, but crucially not ALL the opportunities reading isn't required for. Sure, he could learn stuff to gain access to those opportunities, just as I could learn to read music to gain access to the ones that he has.[/quote] Let me try this another way. There's two chaffeur jobs available. One requires the ability to speak Chinese. One doesn't. I don't speak Chinese, how many of those jobs can I apply for? One. Alice does speak Chinese, how many can she apply for? Both. Now, you can throw up all the pedantic excuses in the world here ("AH but what if Alice can't drive; just because she speaks Chinese doesn't mean she can drive" etc.) but the fact is, on this occassion, Alice has a required skill that I do not.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='480833' date='May 6 2009, 11:05 AM']On the other hand, I'd hazard a guess that of the numerous opportunities that I've had in my (admittedly short) career, the majority would not have been offered to rslaing, because he doesn't have some of the musical skills that I possess.[/quote] Not what I said. Unless you're suggesting Rslaing *can't* have the skills you have *because* he can read; or that someone wouldn't have offered him the opportunity *because* he can read then its a different kettle of turnips. You got the jobs on your skills, but you don't have those skills *because* you never learned to read. You got those skills because you did, it just so happens you never learned to read. Rslaing might have them too. I say Rslaing, since I almost certainly don't.

[quote name='mcgraham' post='480819' date='May 6 2009, 10:55 AM']Don't make the mistake of thinking that developing a strong ear is automatic just because one can read. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just that it isn't a given.[/quote] I think you'll find I already just said ear training was important. Ear training and reading are completely separate skills - just because you can read doesn't mean you can or can't play by ear. And just because you can't read doesn't mean you can actually play by ear either. The point is, surely everyone needs effective ears... so everyone can go for opportunities where reading is not required (but ears are). But only readers can go for opportunities where reading *is* required. You're perhaps coloured by meeting too many readers who had underdeveloped ears, but that is basically irrelevant to the issue.

[quote name='mcgraham' post='480796' date='May 6 2009, 11:38 AM']Fair question - I have played with such people. I'm not saying that ALL readers do NOT develop skills, I'm saying that often there is no driving force or necessary imperative to develop such skills as they are not needed outside of their usual sphere of playing. IME, such people are usually classically trained musicians who 'get into jazz' or branch out into some other styles, and because they have the technique, and perhaps a memory that allows them to throw out licks they learned from reading, they do a passable imitation of such styles. I played with a jazz group that was like this (see a previous post by me in this thread) and they were shocking. No dynamics, no understanding of variations, colouring the music with different ideas, and just random fast streams of notes in their solos. They could play difficult stuff, had solid rhythm, presented solos with confidence, but really had no depth to it. It was the academic version of what I would do if I had to bluff my way through a reading set by ear.[/quote] I can see what you're saying - and have seen similar. That's the fault of the training (especially classical) or individual at work. Although I wonder if they were simply a bit useless - since dynamics etc. in classical training/music are typically very important and they should have had this. Whether you read or not, in music there are always reasons to develop skills such as ear training and improvisation. I think the nature of some performers who read does reading a disservice and presents it in the wrong light. Readers love our ears too; and a good jam.

Cheers Musky, That helped settle things in my mind nicely.

[quote name='mcgraham' post='480745' date='May 6 2009, 10:55 AM']Those who read well have little reason in organised (i.e. non-improvised) music to develop such skills as they rely on their reading skills to get by.[/quote] Missed this. Outside of orchestral (and arguably some session playing) - can you honestly say this is true? Are you suggesting readers have no reason to develop skills in improvisation (which is basically playing by ear) etc? I don't think many modern musicians *rely* on their reading at the expense of anything else - its a technique that is extremely useful but is not the only thing we can do. Classical training may have traditionally ignored improv etc. but that is not to the detriment of reading, it just showed a certain short sightedness or narrow focus in the systems of musical education.

[quote name='mcgraham' post='480745' date='May 6 2009, 10:55 AM']In short, it's my opinion that there are opportunities for those who can read, and opportunities for those who can't.[/quote] Except all things being equal - someone who can read has access to all of the opportunities reading brings, and all of the opportunities reading isn't required for. I have no comment to make on exactly what those opportunities are or how valuable they might be to someone. That's too subjective for me personally to get involved in.

Well, as a new Warwick owner I'm a bit peeved. (Edit: that the Rockbasses will carry the W on the headstock) But hey, its superficial and pointless for me to worry about it.

Sorry to 'jack a little but I have a sort of relevant question. If you have one member of the band who writes the songs, would the band have to go through PRS to distribute extra cash to him since they are kind of covering the individual's work? Or would the fact he's playing in the band negate that? And if he left the band, would they have to pay (through PRS?) to play the songs the former member wrote?