Cuzzie

9 minutes ago, stewblack said:

I remember some bright spark telling us all some intimate details of Ashdown's business, only to be utterly humiliated by a complete contradiction from the company's BC account. 

Never even apologised for making the stuff up and passing it off as factual. 

Yep - or lecture a speaker manufacturer on cone excursion, dynamics, you name it because they did A-level physics many moons ago.......

20 minutes ago, lonestar said:

I can’t remember if it was Guy Pratt or another celeb bassist who lost the will to live and gave up on Basschat after a previously  heated debate on here about compressors. I recall several weekend warriors telling a pro at the top of his game that he was doing it wrong.

Why is the use of an effects pedal so contentious?

perhap we should stick to less controversial issues like religion, politics or pick V fingers.

I have witnessed a warrior take on Frank Appleton CEO and founder of FEA labs compressors that truly was 🤦🏾‍♂️🤷🏾‍♂️

With no effects you are ‘unlikely’ to get lost in the mix, but you can be more present.

With effects like you mention you can easily get lost, hence compression or parallel paths or both 

31 minutes ago, BadHands said:

Which would be? 

Perhaps they don't need something that can be used for every genre. But something like an overdrive with several usable sounds could be a more inspiring choice. 

Or maybe they're a huge Tool fan, in which case your facetious flanger could be perfect. 

Point being, instead of suggesting the pedal for the average player, perhaps "It depends" is the shortest route to the best answer. 

Or like I said compression alongside a sound modulator/overdrive/distortion etc

7 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

In the time I've spent reading through these five pages about how little difference compression makes to the audience, I could have learned a new song.

Just saying ...

Time I have spent reading basschat I could probably have written a novel, won the Nobel peace prize or invented something and retired living the high life.

Fortunately I multi task and do it mainly whilst on the throne so it’s not completely dead time

7 minutes ago, stewblack said:

I do love a good compression thread. Apart from the obvious trolling, some excellent contributions here. 

My first experience was a button on a Carlsboro head way back when. I pressed it my bass lost everything I liked so I turned it off and swore off compression for life. 

Waded through a couple of threads on Basschat many years later and decided to investigate further. 

My advice is to try as many pedals as you can, learn, and I mean really learn what is happening with each of the settings, try it first last and in the middle, before and after different effects until you find what works for you. 

I now own several compressors and limiters and have at least a rudimentary understanding of how they work. 

It's like everything in life, you have to put the work in. 

That’s a great point - some pedals/gear you get instantly, some take a long time to get to grips with the intricacies of its ability to get right for you.

I am still learning about my amp all the time as I dial in different bits 

@Al Krow it wouldn’t matter how many examples I or anyone gave, for example Marcus Miller - as @peteb said you would find one who may not on a solitary gig and use as justification.

@krispn nails it - a lot of the big touring musicians have bare stages so everything is off stage, older school someone is operating the pedals for them, lots will be midi sync’d and they will be playing to triggers, some will be playing to possibly a bass overlay (Dusty Hill).

Add to the fact the venue PA and sound person is likely to be phenomenal it’s a whole different kettle of fish.

Probably another reason the threads like this details is exactly what people are trying to counteract that Pete mentions. For peeps out there starting out or wanting info, trying to Wade through the chaff can be confusing, hence the reason people take the time to address the balance.

Copy pasting opinions taken out of context from others, steadfastly sticking a view besides a body proof to the contrary based on an agreement to it somewhere  found as justification does not help.

Endless clips, pictures, settings etc. Asked for from other people, yet when asked to contribute for others in a similar vein - a flat refusal because 3 clips were posted the other day on another thread (or possibly a plethora over the years?!)

Questions about workings and intimate uses gear which don’t involve reeling off the spec sheet are ignored/washed over. Surely the whole part of this community is to share that information. Personally I would only ask a question knowing that in a similar circumstance about something I knew, I would take the time and give due diligence to answer back to someone who deserves it.

If you really don’t think a PB compressor is necessary (which is totally fine) actually what you need to do is know a bit about compression and how to use it, to know a bit about soundboards and mixing and then discuss it backwards, it’s just lame saying ‘Ha, world class bassist X doesn’t use one’

Well you know what, he/she are world class, they will have their sound nailed to the nth degree - for someone of limited ability like me not working with a world class team and sound systems etc. Actually it could just help to provide a pleasurable audio experience around the duff notes and dodgy singing.

it’s cold outside, let’s hope you’ve come in.....

Just now, Al Krow said:

I'll get my coat. 

We can all hope.....😉🏃‍♀️💨

22 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

John Paul Jones pretty much didn't use any effects live, went straight to amp. 

Man, what a loser. 😁

But he does use a TC electronic head which has an inbuilt spectracomp compressor.........

Carting out old names no matter how good they are is a ludicrous game, as my man above said they were hardly common place - you may as well say they mainly used tube and not solid state heads and that their cars used leaded petrol not unleaded.

13 minutes ago, peteb said:

I don't think that pedal compressors were a big thing in Jaco's day! 

My suggestion would be to leave as little to chance and to give the sound engineer as good a signal as possible. This is even more important when you are playing pubs and have no FOH engineer. I play on a circuit where there are a lot of decent bands, know a lot of pros and work stagecrew on a big festival (as well as know guys who work for PA companies who do big events). I can tell you that not every bass player who does these gigs uses a compressor pedal. However, those who don't are definitely the exception rather than the rule...  

Yup

MXR Dyna Comp was about the first in 1972. Most of Jaco’s stuff was about his MXR Digital Delay rack.

Of course with things like Helix, Kemper, Fractal etc. you can bet there is a bit of compression in the signal chain

Just now, Al Krow said:

Apparently Jaco didn't use a pedal board compressor live. Left it to the WR sound engineer. 

I guess he must have sounded shite. 

 

Well done - he also only had 4 strings - defo poopy plops compared to the thumb rest crew

Nice work pal 👊🏾👌🏾🙌🏾💪🏾🤘🏾

25 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Some folk seem to manage without any pedals other than a tuner and go straight into their amps. I'm a little staggered that anyone goes to listen to them 😁

I’ve heard some of them, some ok, some I am staggered why they are listened to.

50 minutes ago, BadHands said:

Nah, it's all evil to me

Someone's first pedal should be something that excites them, inspires them to play and gets them playing in new and unusual ways. 

Suggesting a compressor as a first pedal is like suggesting a 7-10 band eq to a guitarist for THEIR first pedal. 

I reckon high on the first list is likely an envelope - bootsy, sir phsycho sexy being listened to and a muff type fuzz, weirdly enough a compressor would help them enjoy it.....😉

Think of compression like the auto align in a word document.

It doesn’t matter whether it’s left, right or centre aligned - you set it you start typing and it makes it a uniform document. You can still double space, tab, use punctuation etc. But within that it looks neat and tidy like it should 

1 hour ago, BadHands said:

I assume there's been a mistake in this as compression isn't the foundation of many songs. Do you mean bass? 

Aside from that, I don't disagree with you in recorded music. Again, my only point was how irritating it is to see players get recommended compressors as first effects pedals.

Correct - bass is the foundation.

As for the first pedal, well it’s not all evil, a simple1 knob spectracomp will get you there and then via the PC you can alter parameters. If you want to go deeper there are others. I really don’t think it’s that bad as a first pedal providing you work with it, non of us picked up the bass and immediately played Hysteria we all had to work at it.

it’s the Johnny fart pants who goes in with chuff all idea and inclination to work at it and buys a 58 knob and parameter to be part of the club, wants it to be an ‘effect’ and notice a massive change and then curses it.

So far as live vs recorded, maybe that’s my irritation like your one-why is something that benefits a sound (and is acknowledged) only useful in one setting and not all?

Maybe that’s me, but if you went to a poorly balanced gig, I doubt you would come away and say, oh well their recorded stuff was ok, nevermind......

1 hour ago, BadHands said:

I find the discussion around bass compression fascinating. Is it a case of the Emporer's new clothes, or just passionate players enjoying majoring in the minors of tone control? 

The only thing that irks me about it all is when I see people getting recommended compressors as a first pedal. 

 

Compression is an essential part of music.  Bass compression is even more essential as not only does it lend itself to compression being the foundation of the song and the building block of the music having a good understanding of it and how best to use it serves the purpose of making you and the people around you sound better

7 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Glad we are back on track.

I've always played without any fx,  just the sound of the bass. Not because it's a religion but because my bass playing is fairly basic and I was always running the PA. I didn't need any extra distractions on stage. When I've had compressors built into amps I've tried them and ended up switching them out. I've always found they've done very little or they completely crushed the dynamics of playing. I've always assumed fx would add a little to my sound but without being able to hear what the audience hear out front the combination of  factors has put me off starting to climb the learning curve.

Lockdown has changed that. I've been playing music with a mate on Soundtrap. It's a kind of very simple online DAW I guess. Crucially it records everything clean and you can add fx later. That's let me try the effects of a couple of the compression fx they provide and instantly hear what they do in the mix. It makes a difference, quite a big one and it makes things better.

I've never been bothered by my on stage sound, I can always hear the bass, hearing what the rest of the band are up to is more of a problem. I came to bass late after mixing live for years and I have a healthy disrespect for musicians who put 'their' sound in front of the band's sound.

So I'm following this with interest, I know what I want to achieve and some sort of compression is the way to do it Come on guys go nerdy on me. I want to know what changing the attack and release times really does to the sound. What ratios are best for metal, can I set things so dynamics are secured but presence is increased and yes, where should compression go in the chain?

Welcome to the world!!!

So far as the chain goes, there is no hard and fast, but will also depend on anything else you are playing with - for example with a filter pedal if you have it before and you squash your sound too much you may lose it’s ability to form a squelchy sound to open that envelope.

If you use an octave pedal it may be better before to make it a tighter signal for tracking.

You may want one at the start and end of chain, first can even the attack out, a load of pedals doing whatever, then re balance at the end.

No hard and fast, but what is right for you.

As for setting your compression up, TJ’s video wasn’t bad on explanation posted earlier.

Have a listen to this

If you (not pointing at anyone) can’t hear the benefit and alteration to the sound you want to achieve by compression here then you have cloth ears, and further more if you can’t see how it would be applied in a live situation then that’s crass I am afraid.

I am fully with you about not putting a sound before other instruments - it’s a recipe with ingredients to be blended - compression is there to help and stop you slipping with the salt to ruin the flavour

46 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@krispn - cheers for taking the to time write that lengthy post for us. Certainly no need to personalise this as I'm actually not looking for any particular guidance or input - I've had plenty! But thanks for your very kind offer - it's appreciated. FWIW my focus these days is much more addressing all the other stuff you rightly mentioned in your excellent earlier post; with gear being an enjoyable & fun distraction rather than the main event - although I do still end up getting suckered into thread re-treads such as this, lol!

My challenge (and apologies for continuing to repeat it), in the context of this thread, is for folk who are finding compression works well to share what that actually sounds like, as a couple have already kindly done. I get that it will be tailored to their own set up. Others can then make up their own mind whether what they are hearing is going to be useful for them or not in one of the eight areas you outlined earlier, plus the more limiter focus that ped shared.

And if we get a few more clips to add to the ones we already have, this thread could very possibly end up being one of the most useful compression threads ever! 😊

Knowledge sharing is definitely a good thing for many people I agree, I and others defo interested n that limiter stuff specific to your set up ......😉

44 seconds I step on it - it’s obvious and no it’s not a volume push - it’s all at unity gain - and yes I think most will hear a difference.

@Al Krow I am sure you can squeeze something out for the masses clip or no clip

9 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@krispn cheers mate - TJS's stuff is always thoughtfully put together. What would be fantastic, when you're next at rehearsal, is if you (or anyone else!) could get a recording done "in the mix" with comp engaged and switched off - I'm sure this thread will still be "open" when your laptop has been cleaned up 😊

The nuance point you mention is, however, an important one - as we are constantly told the real benefit of the PB compression is "in the mix".

And maybe you could encourage your southern buddy to share the clip he's already done, as I'm sure everyone is bored with me and him going round in circles (again) - lol! Particularly given that it would take 30 seconds to upload and he's made a point of referencing it earlier in the thread. If I recall correctly, his band was sounding pretty good in case he's feeling shy!

I think you forget that my work pattern denotes I don’t always have a few mins to find the video clip which is hidden somewhere in my phone as I try to finish up and get to a polling station to vote.

We could stop going in circles, but then that may involve you sharing some info....😉

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Soz - gonna be nothing further from me in terms of compression related clips - I'm not the one saying that "normal" (i.e. not being purely used as a limiter) pedal board compression makes a noticeable difference in a band mix.

Besides, I've posted a shed load of clips on this forum over the past few years (this week's are on the OC-5 thread); so I'm sure a few BC comp fanboys , if they really believe in the value of pedal board compression, will oblige. If there's silence on the subject, well I think that tells its own story.

As yours is already done, shouldn't take any effort to share that one for us all to have a listen to? And maybe the OP could oblige with a couple to illustrate what the misconceptions are he believes we are all suffering from?

Obliged to Kev for getting the ball rolling with that A/B comparison of compressor both bypassed and engaged from 2013. Good man. Be useful to hear a few transparent clean compressors, without the overlay of heavy dirt, in action in similar vein particularly in a band mix. But I'm not holding my breath! 😉

Well that’s not entirely on the spirit of things - regardless of clips being posted or not (strange reply saying you have posted enough clips over the years considering you ask for clips and settings regularly from others) we all like to learn things. asking about the effect of your limiter and how you use it is valuable information for people who want to protect their speakers. Things like what is the volume threshold where it happens, how hot does the signal have to be, gain staging, stacking pedals and how it affects it - do your different cabs have different tolerances.

Does your mixer have a compressor on it, what type, how does it work etc.

There is a breadth of practical things that could be shared that is not just quoting spec sheets and numbers and can be useful to people, and you have some nice equipment that you could demonstrate your understanding on the subject and practicality of applying it, how you use your gear.

Surely that’s not unreasonable?

45 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Actually there was a very useful sound clip on that video you posted at 05.47 to 06.27 where he A/B's with and without the compressor on, so thanks for sharing. That's exactly the thing it would be great to hear more of. Folk can now have a listen to the clip and make their own minds up.

I'm afraid I'm not going to stray from my simple point (and it's not directed at you specifically Kev - it's more a general one for this discussion): if we BC'ers or our audience can't hear and notice a difference then frankly there's plenty else to be focussing on (e.g. all the stuff in krispn's post). If we can and it's making a positive difference, then excellent.

I look forward to folk posting their A/B sound clips with comps on and off, particularly useful in a live mix. In the meantime, no point me commenting further - I've said my piece 😁

How about an answer about the limiter and speaker farting and mixer compression wins clips being posted?

Seems a fair trade?

Maybe you could post clips limiter on and limiter off whilst playing so we can hear the sound and view how the speakers are moving?

That would be helpful to many demonstrating your point

5 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Yup, dear fella, you did and all credit to you for that one! The "but" was it didn't sound too different to a slight volume boost! But be great if you are happy to share the clip here as it's exactly the sort of evidence that is actually useful in this discussion and I suspect would be of interest to more than just yours truly (aka Sith Lord, apparently 😁).

Yeah fair enough Kev and I think that's well understood. I think the point is a LOT of folk have done exactly this over the years and not found any difference. Bear in mind from a live player's perspective they should be wearing a decent set of ear plugs if they value their hearing and the same for your band mates. So perhaps the better test would be whether someone in the audience specifically listening out for the bass line could notice it. And that's where a few half decent recordings would be really useful. 

It was set at unity gain - it just did its job

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Completely agree with your first point Kev. Studio compression in the hands of an expert sound engineer makes complete sense. And similarly a sound engineer mixing a full band sound. Compressors used as limiters in the way Ped set out earlier makes a lot of sense too - it's how I have my Becos set up on my board (and also deals with items 3, 6 and 7 on krispn's useful "list of 8"). 

But hearing and feeling our live sound are not unrelated and should be something that can be recorded, just in the same way as studio mastering, and make a difference to the listener's experience. 

Unfortunately the lack of any evidence of the efficacy of pedal board compressors used in a live setting is a little deafening; it certainly doesn't mean that we're not open to it, contrary to Mr Lukin's belief. Tbf, unlike the self-proclaimed Jedi above, one of my BC buddies is happy to record a clip of the impact of PB dual band compression on his sound and, if it is decent - which he is confident it will be, I'll definitely be following him in getting one!

@Al Krow Just to follow up on the compressors as limiters, or just a limiter as a decent use as opposed to a pedal compression live, and popping a few things together from posts you have made.

You often say it is there to protect your speaker cones form unwanted volume spikes.

Please can I ask what kind of volume are you playing at to make the cones to practically fart out?
You have high quality gear that could and can be pushed quite hard - if it’s not being pushed do you need a limiter at all?

Also (and there is nothing wrong with it) you proudly go bass - amp - cab on gigs, no pedals.  The pedal board is at home.
Are you playing at a higher volume at home as opposed on a gig which needs you to have a limiter on your signal? Even using filters/synth at home etc. Is it at such a volume to rag the cones?

Wouldnt it make more sense to protect the gigging cab?

Just interested.

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Completely agree with your first point Kev. Studio compression in the hands of an expert sound engineer makes complete sense. And similarly a sound engineer mixing a full band sound. Compressors used as limiters in the way Ped set out earlier makes a lot of sense too - it's how I have my Becos set up on my board (and also deals with items 3, 6 and 7 on krispn's useful "list of 8"). 

But hearing and feeling our live sound are not unrelated and should be something that can be recorded, just in the same way as studio mastering, and make a difference to the listener's experience. 

Unfortunately the lack of any evidence of the efficacy of pedal board compressors used in a live setting is a little deafening; it certainly doesn't mean that we're not open to it, contrary to Mr Lukin's belief. Tbf, unlike the self-proclaimed Jedi above, one of my BC buddies is happy to record a clip of the impact of PB dual band compression on his sound and, if it is decent - which he is confident it will be, I'll definitely be following him in getting one!

Question then.

Do you have a sound engineer mixing your band when you play mainly?

If it’s just your Heath and Allen Mixing desk you use who balances the sound when you use your own PA?

What is the compressor type and it’s abilities on your desk and do you use it on all channels/instruments etc?