Pirellithecat

So .... been experimenting and I guess there might be a good reason for active basses - even with Wireless .......... I invite all to comment and put me straight if this is complete ^*&llocks!!! Thinking about PJ basses (or basses with more than 1 pickup) I have always been a little frustrated by the effect that changing one volume control (certainly at "max") affects the Volume/tone of the whole caboodle - insertion loss I believe - which seems perfectly logical to me and my albeit limited understanding of electronics, and which is somewhat inescapable in a passive circuit. So, I guess one way round this is to amplify each channel before "mixing" the signal subsequently in the chain. As I have a "mule" bass I wired the P and J pickups separately to a mixer this morning. And it works really well! Better tone and ability to mix each channel with no effect on the other. Added benefit of tone control on each channel too! So, I thought, why not just build a stereo-out and use the same setup "live" - got quite excited ........ before realizing that this would preclude wireless operation (unless there's a stereo wireless system out there?) And then the mists cleared and it dawned on me that an active bass does exactly this! Doh!

Yep - had several cables from them now, all good and UK assembled @ reasonable cost. 👍

So ....... no need for an Active unless I feel the need for more tone controls ON the bass rather than the Pre-amp/Amp ............ How disappointing, Gas Evaporating ............😌

Yep - I did find the issues with cheaper Wireless systems - so always have a cable to hand should there be interference problems. However, I haven't had problems with dropout since changing to a Boss WL 20 and I can not detect any change in signal quality, when using wired or wireless. I've used the Boss WL20 with active and passive basses with no issues (I did read up about it when choosing between the WL20L and the WL20 and chose the non L version for a reason I can no longer recall!) - however my Gigging bass is active and I have no "impedance issus that I can detect. So these technical issues associated with wireless units aside, is the reason for choosing Active vs Passive now purely a preference as to where one wants to set the tone, i.e. on the amp (pre-amp)or on the guitar? I tend to leave the tone on the bass alone and maybe use a change in the blend between the pickups for different styles during a set. The Amp gets set up for the venue acoustics at the get go and that's about it apart from pedals for Drive/Octave etc. I'm interested as I have the urge to buy a "new" bass and am weighing up the active vs passive options.

Oops - probably should be in the Bass guitar section ........

I know that there are several reasons for the choice of active vs passive electronics. One of them seems to be that Active basses address the issue of signal loss via (long) leads and once the signal has degraded you can't adequately address this using external EQ. Isn't this argument invalid where wireless systems are employed?

I'm looking forward to an update from Al 😉 after a few gigs, (it'll be fascinating to see how empirical observation aligns with theory). I find it really difficult to judge PA speakers other than by hearing them in a live setting with a band. I do hope you've got a lot of gigs within the next 3 weeks Al - 'cos I "need" some new PA speakers for the 8th April ....... 😄

Isn't the Sandberg a VT 4 rather than a TM4?

Very interesting - quick question re. "gain at mixer" from a novice (me!). Am I right in thinking there might be 3 (4 including FX's?) controls which affect gain before the PA speaker. 1) the incoming Mic sensitivity control, 2) the channel fader control for the channel in question 3) the Master (left/right) faders to the PA speakers So which of these would you see as being the main target for feedback control (if any?) or are they all equally important? I've been through the process of setting the mic sensitivity/gain on the mixer for each mic and then the channel outputs to give the appropriate LED responses on the mixer, so I guess ideally it's a question of the master fader in concert with the PA speaker volume control. But I'm weak .... and I can be found fumbling around (tweaking) the other knobs 🙄

OK - borrowed some speaker stands - rigged up PA using a small Soundcraft mixer. Tried the Sandberg straight into the mixer using HiZ input alone and with some Spotify piped in. Tonally, it's pretty much as before but clearer now it's centred at Ear level. Yes some of the bass "muffle" has gone, but, for me at least, the E string performance is lacking - "dead" if you like. Higher up the fretboard - probably OK. So, tried the D.I. route, Sandberg> Genzler on-board D.I. preEQ > Mixer. Sounds better - livelier all round and the sound is better - actually sounds as I expect a bass to sound. However, the E string still sounds relatively "dead". Carefully listening to piped-in music (OK it is from a phone via the mixer) I would say the "produced" bass has a similar tonal quality. I guess it all depends on what you're after, so probably OK if not loud. Would it be OK for a 5 string ............not so sure. Would I use the 710's for bass ...... in an emergency, yes, as a routine replacement for backline - no. So there you have it. YMMV Interesting experiment , for me at least, I clearly need bigger/better PA speakers if I'm going to succeed in reducing stage volumes I'll need some PA support. Even then, unless it's IEM's all round (unlikely) I'll need a backline amp/cab set-up. Probably rather go for very good 12 inch PA speakers and no sub, due to transportation .... for now at least. I'll check my piggy bank 🙄

2 and a half feet - ?750mm! My bass cabs would be taller than me on a 750mm stand! But, I'll try the 710's on PA stands as promised - just as soon as I can get them from the rehearsal space - I can hardly wait!! 🙂

Actually, both the 710 and the Sense 12 were on an open frame support about 500mm off the floor but it's a good observation and I certainly can't argue with experience. As soon as I get the chance I'll use the PA speaker stands and try again. Good call!

I'm increasingly unsure about the rights and wrongs of all this. I spend 90% of my time playing bass using headphones, usually with a backing track of the music I'm practicing/playing along to. All works fine and can hear myself and the backing band! I guess that 2 x 2 inch speakers - even less if I use in Ear Monitors. During gigs, we often put a music feed through the PA during breaks - full band loud enough for people to dance along to if they feel the urge. And then we get up and play with a huge acreage of speaker cones. I suspect a lot of this is down to competing with loud drummers but I also believe that there are "traditional" beliefs that lead to lots of unnecessary/wasted volume. Why is it virtually impossible to get guitar players to get their cabs off the floor? Why do guitar players, listening to their heroes perform on u-Tube on their PC's or smart speakers, insist that the guitar just won't make a good noise through the PA ('cos it's not a guitar cab!!). Why do I need two huge speaker cabs which are played with a hugely powerful amp (at <20% of it's output) - except to get the top cab nearer to my ears so that I can hear myself? Another band playing similar material in the same venues use a 10" Markbass cab for the bassist and I can hear him! However, if we do find a way to control the volume so that everything can be heard and the dynamics are sufficient to whip the audience into a dancing frenzy, it'll be even more important (and worthwhile) to ensure that the bass sounds great. At which point I'd go back to my suspicion that, in the long term, 2 x RCF 710's may not do justice to Al's bass playing, (and investment made in gear)!! 😏😄

OK - Headphones donned and had a proper listen. The bass sounds tidy and clean and I can hear the notes being played. Can't hear much in the trouser flapping frequencies (and who can tell from a phone clip) which might be as intended. Great vocals (and nice bass playing of course!) and everything well controlled and civilised.👍 Makes the band I'm in sound like a war zone! 🙄 I would expect the 710's to be better than the 310's so maybe they'll work well for you. I have the opposite issue, which is that my 710's are great but probably not sufficient to deal with more than the 3 vocal mics, at the volume we tend to deliver. We have a fantastic female singer and to do her justice (and be able to add other stuff to the mix) it would be great to get the Art 932's (plus a sub) and stick the Kick Drum/ Snare through them too when necessary. The chances of getting the guitars through the PA with quiet(er) backline are low .... but I'm working on it. I could still fit all this in my car, the sub only really occupies the space of the speaker stand at the venue so stage space would be OK and I would probably reduce my cabs from 2 to a single unit (and get PA support where necessary.) Expensive hobby this music malarkey!

Interim Update.......... for the Instant Gratification folks .... I've set up the RCF Art710's alongside a Studiomaster Sense +12 inch Monitor for comparison. I've taken a DI from my Genzler Magellan. The sound produced by the E string isn't great - it's quite dead , almost muffled. (Sandberg VM4, Roundwound D'addario NXYL's) strings) As the frequency increases above 440Hz the sound is pretty good with more harmonic information. Volume wise it might be OK for quiet gigs, but I wouldn't use it "alone" for a live gig, except to reinforce the backline. I tried using a sub-octaver to get an idea of what a B string might do and I feel that a B string might be a bridge too far in terms of sound quality. The Studiomaster has a nicer bass response in so far as it sounds fuller and with more harmonic info. However, it breaks up rather quickly - OK as a bedroom noodling practice amp though. (or indeed a monitor) I'll try again with the band and mixer etc. on Wednesday, but I suspect I wouldn't be happy using the 710's in a live situation to carry all the bass sound reproduction. Maybe with a sub, but I'm not sure the Crossover point would be appropriate. And that's with a 4 string. I'd also be concerned about what effect it might have on the sound of the rest of the mix, but I am rather conservative in this regard. It strikes me that there are really 2 elements to this. One is the innate quality of the sound of bass guitar via the 710's and the other is whether they can deliver sufficient volume and maintain this quality. I certainly wouldn't be happy with either. Maybe in a quiet band ........... ? But even then, and even if the audience doesn't care about the quality of the bass-sound, it would distract me o end! More to follow..........

Just back home after gig. Another "blàst" but not helpful on the 710's, as we ended up using the venues PA and only one 710 as monitor. But, I'll assemble the full PA tomorrow and try it out for you. I also have rehearsal on Wednesday and will add the bass into mix of vocals/guitar/kick to see how it copes. Sorry to keep you waiting!

Hi Al, I have RCF710 Mk4's which are really good - get lots of positive feedback on their sound. We're using them as monitors tomorrow evening - I'll try my bass through them (alone) before we kick off to see how they perform at "gig" level volumes and get back to you. From previous experience I'm not optimistic though, especially with a 5 string.

That, Matt, is quality stuff! thanks for sharing! Couldn't resist having a listen to the VM5 vids too - sounds great. Very helpful, I'm certainly more in the VM5 sound camp than the VT4 for the kind of Sets I'm playing (rather badly in contrast!), so maybe pickups etc. should be the first "investment" rather than a new beautifully-made-wonderfully-playing-rather-expensive-and-completely-undeserved-treat!!! But they do look so good ........

Thanks Mattpbass, Which of your collection would you say is the most P and J. For me the VM4 isn't very "P" and definitely not Jazz, but is something else altogether - which is great in a covers band doing stuff from the 60's to the 2020's ...... which is what I seem to do most.....

Thanks Ead - I'm over on the wet west of Cumbria - I still have you're Black MIJ P Bass, which has been getting a fair bit of use recently and which, in a roundabout way, triggered this question. Think Blues. And, you're quite right - it's my question is pretty "narrow" - I can't rule out that I'm really just looking for a justification to buy a new bass that I really don'y merit! I could broaden it a little to ask, ...... "For those fortunate enough to have been able to compare the Bridge Humbucker on a Sandberg to the Jazz Bridge pickup, what , if any , would you say the differences are? " I'll get back to practicing ..............

Can I tap into this thread's wisdom? - I'm struggling to resist an acute attack of 'New Year GAS" and need counselling! I have a Sandberg California II VM but foolishly tried out a number of other basses yesterday. I tried the usual suspects, Fender PJ's, Charvel, Yamaha, which are all good in their own ways - the Yamaha BB734a was probably the "surprise", although a painted neck wouldn't be on my "must haves" list. And then, I tried a California II VT. It was absolutely fantastic. I can't explain the difference except that it was smooth, fitted like a glove (if a bass could do that?), was a delight to play and just looked great. Of course it was significantly more expensive, but it made ALL the other basses feel "industrial". I can't really adjudge the tonal character of this bass from a shop demo - there was no VM in stock and everything sounded completely different to my usual set up, so I wondered whether anyone who had owned/used both a VM and a VT might be able to highlight the tonal differences between the 2 variants. I am drawn to the Jazz Style Pickup as it seems to add a more contrasting tone to the P pick-up than the Humbucker. It might be that the Humbucker is great but not what I expect in terms of adding a bit of "bite" to the tone or that the jazz is just more familiar to me. So if anyone can share their experience/opinion of the differences that would be really helpful. Even if that's just to provide a plausible rationale for negotiation with my "understanding" partner!!

Many thanks - I think that the mind set of "too complicated, a hassle, gets in the way, can't hear my drums" etc. will make this an impossible task. I did try the Mic above the drums, but as its the drummers vocal Mic this doesn't work too well. I'll have another go though, who knows, I've got progress from "Nah" to "OK I'll put on a headset for a quick listen ...... Nah" in 12 months so another year or two should do it. Next step is to put a dedicated mix to a dedicated active monitor and await so much feedback (from his non directional vocal mic) that it's clear it's not and option. Then repeat the "have you thought about IEM's". To be honest it's not my problem that he can't hear the vocals or the guitar, but as this leads to time keeping issues - especially when things go a little arwy, it affect the band too. Hey ho!! The EAD10 does look like a good solution though, but a tad costly.

OK ...... hopelessly optimistically tried to set up a monitor mix for our drummer at rehearsal. (guitar/bass/vocals) BUT his kit isn't micced so he doesn't like the fact that he can't hear himself (properly). He normally uses "ear plugs" so I was hopeful it would work ..... but he's not content. Is there an approach that might work ... short of miccing his kit?

Happy New Year Al. How's the Zoom L8 panning out? I've finally managed to get some interest for going in Ears (well, me and the Drummer at least!!), which means, if I can convince the others, we'll need at least 4 monitor mixes .... so potentially a new mixer. How are you finding the onboard FX's on the L8 and is it straightforward to add an external source for stereo music provision during breaks etc??

Weird isn't it! But, for whatever reason, different profile/neck sizes make an implausible difference to how comfortable a bass feels to play ......... to me at least, could be what you're used to I guess. I do spend more time up in the dusty areas on my Jazz Neck (38mm) profiled bass than my others (39.5, 40mm) when I'm "noodling" - it just invites you to explore!