4stringslow

[quote name='Kevin Dean' timestamp='1471993609' post='3117603'] That's 20% the most unfair Tax [/quote] More unfair than council tax? How would you feel about having to pay tax on a bass, regardless of your current financial circumstances, and after having already bought it out of taxed income?

No.

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1471967694' post='3117321'] They're still working is what I meant. They could have stopped years ago, but continue to tour and play, when they don't have to. One mans dive is another's friendly old jazz club. [/quote] Yes, still working, but only on their terms, which is what I meant. Having said that, how many successful musicians have gone back touring only because they needed the money? From what I've read and seen about the reformed Police tour, the three of them could hardly stand the sight of each other, stayed in separate hotels and only actually met up on stage.

[quote name='spencer.b' timestamp='1471967391' post='3117315'] I honestly think I would do all the same gigs including things like a sh*t cocktail hotel gig . . . . [/quote] Fair enough, and all due respect for such a choice. [quote name='spencer.b' timestamp='1471967391' post='3117315'] 4stringslow I didn't mean you were bugging me and I appreciate your measured responses , for a change this thread hasn't gone bitter! [/quote] Thanks. It's sometimes difficult to convey that questioning someone is not the same as criticising them!

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1471964318' post='3117292'] Indeed, I would consider the 'selective amateur' as occupying the worst of all worlds, being sufficiently committed to forsake remuneration yet failing to enjoy the experience enough to perform under any and every possible circumstance. One's mileage may vary, of course. Other options are available. [/quote] A very good point, and I'd count myself as one of those 'unfortunate' amateurs - playing and gigging for the love of it, but not loving it enough to play or gig at every possible opportunity. I also agree that everyone's mileage will vary and other options are most certainly available, but I have a sneaking suspicion that few musicians would not vary their playing habits if money was absolutely no consideration at all. I've no doubt some would not change, but I'd bet they'd be the exceptions rather than the norm. Alas it's pretty much only a thought experiment and is unlikely ever to be confirmed one way or another.

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1471962700' post='3117283'] So why do guys like Sting, Peter Gabriel or a miriad other successful musicians carry on ? [/quote] Ah, but they don't do they? When did they last play down their local dive just for the love of it? They carry on on their own terms because they are not forced to do otherwise because of financial constraints.

Such abuse doesn't really matter to the customer directly. We ordered a full-length mirror from Amazon a couple of weeks ago. Despite being well-packed, when opened it was cracked. We emailed Amazon with a photo and they said don't worry they'd send a replacement and we could keep the cracked one. The new one duly arrived and when opened (you've guessed it) it was also cracked. Another email to amazon and they offered to send a replacement or a refund and again we could keep the cracked one. We opted for a refund this time as we now had two full length mirrors that were basically functional and we had only ordered it as we were hosting our niece's wedding and needed more mirrors for the bridesmaids dressing room. Online Suppliers are effectively forced to give good service in order to maintain customer confidence, without which their entire business model would collapse. This recent experience has not put me off online shopping one little bit

[quote name='spencer.b' timestamp='1471951765' post='3117169'] Sorry 4stringslow just reread your post, so if I didn't need to earn money I actually think I would do all my gigs , I enjoy playing bass and also think it's good to be busy and have purpose in life Again , don't really know what you're getting at [/quote] I was just exploring your comment "[i]... so it really bugs me when guys on here have suggested they care too much about the music to do it for a living and they're better off cos they can pick and choose what gigs they take,[/i]". In short, who would carry on their lives exactly as they are now if they won the lottery? ie would a pro musician whose only source of income is from playing music still take on every bit of paid musical work they could even though money would no longer be significant. I've never earned my living from music and so the only reason I have for playing and gigging is because I enjoy it. Simple as that. I'm a free agent and can pick and choose what I play, when I play and (within reason!) where I play. If it was my only source of income I wouldn't have that freedom because I'd have bills to pay etc etc. I'm not suggesting that people don't enjoy their paid jobs (I guess some do, some don't) but how many actually enjoy it enough that they would keep it if they could still live perfectly well without it? There's no right or wrong answer, I'm just curious.

That's fine. But, just imagine, for whatever reason, that you really didn't need the money. Would you still take EVERY gig you could or would you be just that little bit more selective?

There must be a million examples of technical mastery that leads to an underwhelming end result. Photo-realistic art springs to mind. Immensely impressive on a technical level yet what's the point? http://www.creativebloq.com/illustration/examples-photorealism-10135012

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1471806251' post='3116045'] And Eric is a rank amateur in terms of golden eardness when it comes to the serious hi fi brigade! [/quote] Beat me to it. Seekers of the ultimate tone should take a leaf of the hi-end Hifi brigade's book of magic spells where there are all manner of snakey oily things to deplete their wallets and assuage their golden ears. Anyone without gold plated mains plugs, for a start, is really not taking their tone seriously

Never, over 30 years of (non-continuous) playing, 99% fingers. I'm obviously not trying hard enough

Mrs 4string is totally at ease with my music interests, gear, band and gigging. We have often rehearsed at my house and when we've been recording the place has been strewn with gear, cables and instruments for days on end, but it's never been an issue. We've even held 'music weekends' in the summer and invited friends' bands to play and stay over. Each year the weekend is a little bit bigger and after six of them it's becoming a bit of tradition now So no spousal problems at 4string towers - my only complaint is that Mrs 4string is not at all musical herself.

I quite like that definition. Semi-pro = covering all music related costs but no more.

Living In The Past

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1471284727' post='3111859'] Have you seen all the gear ebs_freak owns?! [/quote] Not unique to music though. I know a couple of keen amateur photographers with camera gear that's probably cost each of them well over £10k. One has a single lens that cost almost £4k. They don't seem to think they have a divine right to be paid for each photo they take, they just love photography and are prepared to pursue it whatever the cost to them. I guess much the same thing applies to people who love sailing or diving or flying or caravanning or [insert other pastimes here].

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1471217009' post='3111375'] In any context when someone says money doesn't matter, yes it's very hard to understand. Keep in mind, I'm a Yankee. We're a society that's really weird when it comes to money. [/quote] Fair enough, must be a cultural thing. Money matters, of course, but after the essential bills are paid it's also there to be spent on things to be enjoyed. I enjoy music and am happy to spend some of my spare money on it. But let's keep things in perspective - I know people who spend more on cigarettes and booze than I spend on my music hobby so it's not exactly the preserve of millionaires only and certainly nothing to be 'snooty' about.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1471196818' post='3111176'] That's honesty as opposed to snooty. [/quote] No, it just fits your preconceptions. The fact is my music hobby (or whatever you want to call it) costs me money, but I can afford it so that's what I mean about not caring about the money or more accurately I care enough about my money to spend it on things I enjoy (as far as possible). One of those things is music. Is this really so hard to understand?

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1471179838' post='3111044'] Show off and tell your mates that you are in a band. Always good reasons. [/quote] I thought that was a given

[quote name='walbassist' timestamp='1471179186' post='3111032'] Well, we haven't left the EU yet, but yes, when we do we'll have to pay duty and tax on imported goods. [/quote] Perhaps. We don't yet know.

Yes, nothing has changed - yet. No one really knows what will happen when the UK formally leaves the EU but we can be sure that there will be plenty of discussion and news about what the changes will be well before they actually happen. Personally, I can't see anything changing for at least another year, probably more.

[quote name='grandad' timestamp='1471153042' post='3110788'] The catagories, pro, seml-pro and hobbyist do not describe skill level. They may imply it in common usage. Neither do they provide a measure of zeal or passion for our art. [/quote] +1

Exactly. It's not a 'snooty thing it's just a fact. Imagine that money was no object, for whatever reason. Would that change the choices of gigs or music played?

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1471094734' post='3110493'] Teaching, writing (music journalism), composing, arranging. It's all still music. [/quote] Fair point

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1471093729' post='3110486'] Understood, i get a little testy of any hint of the notion that if your playing for money, you can't love what your doing. Toodle Pip Blue [/quote] No problem. Of course it's possible to love your job, whatever it is, but I reckon the best indicator of what people really love doing is how they choose to spend their time when they have no reason to work at anything. I've always loved playing music but I've always loved the idea of becoming financially independent even more. I've also always known that my musical ability would never enable me to achieve that so I tried something else that would and aimed to retire at 40. I failed dismally at that, though I did manage it a shade before my 50th Did I love my career job? Well, I had a great time with lots of interesting challenges and travelled the world on expenses, but I guess it failed the 'love' test because I chose to give it up as soon as I could afford it. The disappointing thing is that I can no longer use 'pressure of time' as an excuse for why my playing hasn't improved much over the years