Bilbo

Play the Blues and Go - off Wynton Marsalis' Live at the Village Vanguard. Ben Wolfe swinging his buns off.... Am sticking to straight walking lines at the moment for d/b practice (building stamina for walking three hours a night!!!)

HMP Latchmere House, 9/11, the day the twin towers fell - the prisoners called for a minutes silence before giving a concert that made some of the professionals I have known look a bit sick.

[quote name='Wolfman' post='929094' date='Aug 18 2010, 09:23 PM']Whatever happened to the 'Hate Jazz' thread to which this was once a mere response?[/quote] Positive passion won out in the end..... (and tBBC got banned )

This month's downloads: Mingus Big Band LiveAt Jazz Standard John Patitucci - Imprint Phronesis - Alive - a welcome recommendation from a fellow basschatter.... Barry Altschul Quartet - Irina - an old early 80s set from a great and underated drummer Christian McBride - Kind Of Brown - swing is the thing Chick Corea Trio Music Live in Europe - Miroslav Vitous in fine form

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='928272' date='Aug 18 2010, 01:12 AM']A professional double bassist was in the crowd and afterwards collared me for a natter about some gigs I might want to do, so I presumably wasn't astonishingly sh*t. Loved it, would do it again.[/quote] Looks like you might have to

I was moved to leave before the start

[quote name='Clarky' post='926613' date='Aug 16 2010, 04:07 PM']I assume that it has probably single-handedly got a fair number of pop fans to listen to Jazz. As for your suggestion about listening to other players, despite being best known on BC as a punk bassist, as it happens I have dozens of Jazz albums featuring not just Ray Brown ("We get requests" has been my wake-up CD on my alarm for the last two years), but also other DB greats including Paul Chambers, Scott LaFaro, Oscar Pettiford, Charlie Mingus, Jimmy Blanton etc. And I can see that they "swing" [/quote] God, I hope not. That's like suggesting that most rock fans got there because of Dollar. Your list of listening material is a great one. I just struggle to see how, having heard those guys, you can give Moondance any credibility at all Hey, Vinny. I'll let you off but the rest of the band should be done for corrupting a minor (key). Don't waste time learning the lines; they suck big time. Also, there is a half a bar dropped in there somewher because Van the Man can't count.... And that scatting? Makes me wince......

[quote name='Clarky' post='926546' date='Aug 16 2010, 03:16 PM']At the risk of turning you into a purple, vein-busting Hulk-type creature, Bilbo, what is so bad about the bassline of Moondance - sounds like (an admittedly pop-inflected) take on a standard Jazz walking bass line to me????[/quote] It doesn't swing, there is no internal logic to the lines and the sound sucks. Apart from that, its grrrrrreat.... If a player is playing a line in, say, A minor, it is not enough just to play the notes in an A minor scale. They need to start somewhere and go somewhere in a logical and musical way. The logic is defined by strong notes (1, 3, 5, 6 or 7) and weak notes (2, 4) and by the creative use of chromatics (everything else) but just playing ABDCEF or G in any order is a bit crap. When you are trying to swing, you need to get a sympathetic sound. The bass on Moondance is a kind of clunky ping ping ping ping ping that sits serparately in the mix and doesn't help the rest of the ensemble gel at all (the track has featured as a 'great' in music tecnology magazines - says a lot about the difference between music and technology). His timing is also uncontrolled and fails to groove in any way whatsoever. The only good thing about this performance is that almost anyone with a pulse can improve upon it. It is, of course, against the law to try.... If this sounds like a jazz walking bass line to you, I suggest you listen to anything with Ray Brown on it before you do anything else. You will be thrilled...

[quote name='KevB' post='926394' date='Aug 16 2010, 01:08 PM']It's funny Bilbo but I was listening to Planet Rock the other day and they have a section in one programme where people request their favourite 'unplugged/less out and out heavy' tracks. One of those chosen on Friday was Moondance and the presenter spent ages after playing it extolling it's virtues, I immediately thought of you ranting at the radio of course [/quote] Planet Rock? So a profoundly academic ethnomusicological analysis of the merits of the piece based on sound empirical evidence, then As Shakespeare would have said: 'The dance of the moon doth suck'

One can only hope that the bad players never get heard because they wouldn't be allowed near a recording studio. Experience tells us otherwise but, for me, the only thing to watch for is guys who are taken out of their comfort zones by producers with ideas above their respective talents - like whoever told Van Morrison's bass player to do that to 'Moondance' or John Paul Jones doing reggae on House of the Holy . They are not 'bad' just poorly advised

Did a rehearsal yesterday for a show scheduled at the Theatre Roayl in Bury next month. Clarinet, Sax, Flute, 2x violin, cello, trumpet, piano, guitar, bass and drums. We collectively nailed some pretty sophisticated stuff - everything from Les Miserable to We Will Rock You and Wicked - can you imagine trying to make that happen with that line up WITHOUT dots? It would have been a car crash. Found myself struggling with the detail sometimes (sixteeths in E major ) but my ears got me there without my looking too mmuch like a git. Dots rool!

[quote name='lowdown' post='925839' date='Aug 15 2010, 08:57 PM']Love the remarks.. 1st Video[b]...".Nicely done, Sax player looks cool in the Panama, but the pianist appears to have a large insect on her head, I wonder if she knows..." [/b] 2nd Video[b]..."That rocks along nicely but the drummer and bassist are strangely absent."... [/b] Were you actually loading up your car in not so Proud mary? Garry[/quote] The first was at a function with a Hollywood theme and everyone had to dress like a film part so some bright spark thought we should dress with a Bond theme - we all had bow ties and the pianist had one of those nearly hats women wear to weddings. As for not being [i]in[/i] the video, just take that as evidence that there is a God and he has not abandoned me yet.....

I heard he needed surgery at that time and needed to lose the weight before it could proceed. That was the rumour, anyway.

[quote name='bubinga5' post='924144' date='Aug 13 2010, 05:05 PM']Bilbo (or anyone else) do you find its a skill you have to keep up all the time to keep sharp?[/quote] Very much so but not necessarily in a reading hundreds of charts all day every day kind of way. I find 15 minutes every day (ish) pouring over something lovely, like a Bach Cello Suite, is no hardship and easy enough to maintain. Also helps with the 'good intonation without looking' area of double ans fretless bass. I also have a 'reading rhythms' book on my desk at work that I can look at to tap out rhythms that will increase my ability to 'see' rhythms in the way Doddy describes (I don't count them or talk them, just see them in the same way you don't phonetically spell out written words but scan the whole. I find, for instance, that it helps to recognise that a half bar of sixteenths reads rhythmially the same as a full bar of eighths etc. My 'project' at the moment is trying to get to read the treble, tenor and alto clefs as well as I can the bass clef. Its hard

I recommend Rufus Reid's The Evolving Bassist as it starts you off reading open strings on minims and takes you from there The secret of learning to read is to learn where the notes are on the stave, learn to read rhythms and the JUST DO IT - again and again and again and again and again....... It is a skill you develop by endless repetition. There are loads of transcriptions on here (look under Theory and Technique) and on the net so no excuses. Start simple and build otherwise you will get frustrated (although frustration goes with the territory in this case)

This isn't a response to your band, Jake, but I have a bit of an issue with the word 'entertainment' because it is often used as a justification for 'lowest common denominator' in terms content. Many musicians make decisions based on their [i]perception[/i] of 'what the people want' and fill their sets with old faithfuls like Midnight Hour, Lady Marmalade, Son Of A Preacher Man and so on. Jazz bands are no different and they fill their sets with the tried and true; Autumn Leaves, Fly Me To the M n, Bye Bye Blackbird, Fever, Moondance etc. What happens, whether it is rock or jazz, is that something vital is made bland and predictable and many of the people who want to be entertained are put off. When I look out at weddings, I see dozens of people dancing and hundreds of people not (the quality of the band has no real bearing on this). I did a recent wedding where my little Brazillian project had a field of people buzzing whilst a major London 12 piece with horns, backing vox etc doing 'those' tunes failed to ignite them (people kept coming up to us and saying, 'we wish you were playing, you were much better'. So what, says you? Well, the Brazillian band's set consisted entirely of tunes they didn't know sung in Brazillian Portuguese. The band always goes down really well wherever we play. It just escalates if there are any Brazillians in the audience People want to be entertained not bored. Don't just give them what they want, give them something to get excited about, something they have not heard 1,000 times before (your Charleston gig would be a new experience to most people, Jake). A regular jazz gig I did for 5 years used to mostly act as background noise to an ambivalent audience (the drummer insisted on keeping the material 'familiar'; 'those' tunes again) but the audience (mostly 18-24) only ever sat up and listened when we took it out and did something a bit heavier: Coltrane, Monk, Ornette Coleman; something with some energy and vitality. I have no problem entertaining people and, like everyone else, I like to see people dance but it is a much better feeling when what you are doing is also a bit different, edgy, fresh and engaging. So many of us are no better than cheesy cabaret bands in wolf's clothing. Live music in the UK sometimes feels like Sky TV; every channel is pretty much the same as every other and, with 800+ options, you still can't find anything you actually want to watch. Jazz bands are just as guilty of this as function bands. Its sucking the life out of it. Entertainment is like politics. Everyone heads for the middle gorund to get the most attention and, as a result, nobody gets what they want!

A good point, Paul. I guess the problem is that, if the whole team has to adjust slightly to make it work, that's ok. If the whole team cannot adjust enough to make it work, the alternative is obvious. Sack the player or disband the team. The level you play at is going to have a lot of bearing on the level of inadequacies you will tolerate. If I sat in with Herbie Hancock, I suspect I would get one tune in before I would get glared off stage. But, in an ordinary jazz gig, in a provincial town, I feel it is still morally defensible to expect a certain level of proficiency in the team/band members. If its not there, I reserve the right to do the glaring

[quote name='oldslapper' post='922836' date='Aug 12 2010, 03:07 PM']At what point do you say I am ready I wonder? Who judges? Where's the yard stick?[/quote] That's my point. IMO, it has to rest with your fellow musicians. In the case of your jazz band, your friends are clearly happy enough to work with you: it may be you have good time and a good sound and they feel able to wait for the rest to come. If your time was all over the place, you would probably have known about it already. But you have to proceed with some caution because, sometimes, the 'old school' can be delusional and project all sorts of kudos on to your playing that isn't deserved. I used to play with an old guy a long time ago who thought I was the dogs danglies. Not because I was but because he [i]thought[/i] I was. He was a lovely guy and very enthusiastic (he apparently turned down a guitar gig with The Shadows before they became famous and has been kicking himself ever since) but his standards were very low. If you are surrounded by people like him, it can distort your own perspective on your playing (small town hero kind of thing). But, if they are credible players, they can take you forward absolutely. As for yardstick, in my case there was a bl**dy great elephant in the room. I didn't need a ruler .

[quote name='Doddy' post='922767' date='Aug 12 2010, 02:11 PM']Unfortunately, people like to have their ego's massaged and don't like to be told if there is a deficiency in their playing.[/quote] And there's the nub of it. Noone likes to be told they are not the genius they thought they were. I actually think that a lot of 'students' of the music need lessons in attitudinal change as much as they do in scales and chords. There's no 'i' in jazz (although there [i]are[/i] three in improvisation') But that's another thread

[quote name='chris_b' post='922695' date='Aug 12 2010, 01:25 PM']So we've all got to check with Bilbo to see if we're good enough to gig? Yeah right![/quote] Obviously not, but it may be an idea to check with someone whose opinion you respect (and who you know will be honest with you - so your Nan might not be the best person ). Or to develop a critical sense that allows you to hear the difference between not good enough and good enough. That's actually really hard when you are starting out. If four of you start out together by starting a band before you can play, it may be even harder (although not impossible, as history tells us). The tried and tested method Doddy discussed is nothing more than the natural quality control you get when you choose people for a football team, a sports event, a school play, a church choir, a pub quiz team etc. Main difference is a 24 piece choir can hide an iffy voice and football team can probably carry a dodgy player. Most bands have one of everything so a weak link tends to scream at you. When there are 2 or 3 weak links, forget it. The important think to note is the sense that would allow you to quality control yourself or your band is exactly the same sense that will allow you to develop as a player. If you are deluded into thinking you are better than you are, you will have no motivation to work on the aspects of your playing that let you/the band down. Be your band's own worst critic. One of the big problems for younger jazz musicians (under 60) is that, when many of the older guys started to play, the standard was very low and anyone with a heartbeat could get a gig (and they did). These guys are still out there; some of them are ok but some are excruciating. They still work, putting young people off jazz, left, right and centre Audiences are a LOT more discerning today than they were then and I sometimes wonder if this is why live music is becoming less popular. People want more from thei music than to watch fantasist 'having a go'. How popular am I becoming?

It so doesn't and everyone knows it....but, being 'English' we are too polite to say so. :snob: Its ultimately destructive to allow people to proceed without guidance. I think there is a compelling argument to say we should be supportive and encouraging without being collusive. There is a scene in Wynton Marsalis' book 'Sweet Swing Blues on the Road: A Year with Wynton Marsalis and His Septet' where they have to send a young Eric Reed back to the woodshed for not quite cutting it. It is a particularly moving part of the story and there is a photo of Marsalis hugging the pianist after giving him the news. Now Eric was a good player then and is a GREAT player now but Marsalis needed to make the music the best it could be and needed a better player. By doing it in a respectful way, Reed maintains his dignity, goes away and gets the skills he needs to make himself a better player and Marsalis addresses the weakness. In the UK, we just 'don't call him' and never say why or jsut tolerate it because the money's good. Its a bit gutless, isn't it?. Or we slag him off behind his back? That's two faced? So why is it a crime to say, quietly and away from the public's gaze, 'John. We love you but you're not cutting it, mate. Go see this teacher. Go improve your time. Go work on your chops. Come back when you are ready'. I should note that I can take it as well as give it out and on the occasions when beter players have told me to work on something, I have taken it on the chin and done so (Iain Ballamy told me to work on my reading, Paul Tungay (60s London session ace and Tom Jones lead trumpeter for years) told me where my phrasing was slipping (helped me nail it) and Lee Goodall (Cardiff based multi instrumentalist who played baritone with Van Morrison and other horns with John Taylor, Paula Gardiner, Dylan Fowler and a host of others) who helped me deal with the concept of playing ahead of or behind the beat. If anyone else has anything to say about my playing, I would rather hear it than not as I can't rely entirely on my own critical sense to see the shortcomings.

I can't play files in work so can't comment yet but am I eager to hear this?!!! (I also quite like what SoaD I have heard so that's a good start)

No expert but I can see that trying to use four fingers in half position would leave you vulnerable to intonation problems over an evening due to fatigue - as your hand tired, over the evening or through a particularly long or fast tune, you would inevitably find the additional stretch that little bit harder to maintain and the notes would consequently slip out of tune. I find the Simandl easier on the hands (maybe if I had started this when my hands were still growing, I may have stood a chance - as it is they are grateful for the more natural stretch of the three notes)

[quote name='fatback' post='921808' date='Aug 11 2010, 05:33 PM']I imagine this thread all by itself has cleared a fair bit of undergrowth. I sure won't be risking jazz any time soon [/quote] By all means play it, study it, learn some tunes, practice them, get some lessons and then, when you have got some of the basics under your fingers, find a jazz jam session and go and play one of those tunes you have worked on with some other people. Then go home and practice some more and, next time, play two. What I am saying is, don't expect to say 'I think I'll have a go at jazz' on Monday and to book a gig for your new jazz quartet on Friday. I'm going to get some t-shirts printed: Jazz: don't cr*p on the music...

Dropping the odd note, losing your place in So What, speeding up or slowing down - all grist to the mill. All of those, all night, is less indefensible.