cheddatom Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I think a big problem with this debate is that loads of guitarists will set their modelled sounds at home at practise volumes, and then wonder why it sounds sh*t at a gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='Wil' timestamp='1334311096' post='1614155'] The kit is getting better all the time (thanks Beatles) but I remain to be converted. [/quote] You're thanking the Beatles for digital modelling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Would somebody like to take to each side of this debate live at the EABB? One can play on their perfectly set up model and we can compare that to the "opponents" valvey goodness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334310908' post='1614149'] I have 29 years of gigging experience in my leather trousers, so f*** 'im. On your second point, my POD sounds so f***ing cool live (and in the studio), with guitar or bass. I heard my guitar through a decent sized PA last Saturday as it happens, it sounded glorious. The sound guy had a very large grin when I ripped into Whole Lotta Love in the soundcheck. And my clean sounds were rich and delicious. YMMV. [/quote] Speaking with my [b]34 [/b]years of gigging experience (I started young) - I still don't like 'em.... The best guitar player I have ever payed with is also a professional sound engineer. Funily enough, he doesn't like modelling amps and uses a dual rectifier that he modded himself...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334311421' post='1614164'] Speaking with my [b]34 [/b]years of gigging experience (I started young) - I still don't like 'em.... The best guitar player I have ever payed with is also a professional sound engineer. Funily enough, he doesn't like modelling amps and uses a dual rectifier that he modded himself...... [/quote] Being a sound engineer also means sod all. Sound engineers are still biased. You think bassists can be anal about gear? Go talk to a group of sound engineers! Nerdy goodness I tell ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1334311515' post='1614171'] Being a sound engineer also means sod all. Sound engineers are still biased. You think bassists can be anal about gear? Go talk to a group of sound engineers! Nerdy goodness I tell ya! [/quote] Depends on the sound engineer (I know a lot of the b*ggers) - generally the better that they are the less nerdy they are........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) The guitarist in one band I play in uses a H&K half stack. It sounds nice but it's pretty muddy. I've tried to get him to use his 2 x 12" modelling amp but he likes the fact the H&K is a seperate head and cab. the guitarist in another band I play in uses an original POD with floor controller. It sounds absolutely amasing. It does take him a while to create a new sound, but he hardly ever does that. The fact is this guy has been gigging for years with his POD (including touring Europe etc) and he's learned exactly how to handle it. Another thing - it's not just digital versus analogue or valve. How many people would DI a guitar in the studio? Everyone "knows" that it'll sound better amped up and mic'd up. I've been recording guitars recently, DI'd straight from a pedal. I then add some EQ and compression on the computer and it sounds better than any of the amps I have at my disposal. Anecdotes are never going to solve this debate though. I'd love to take part in some blind tests! Edited April 13, 2012 by cheddatom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334311821' post='1614184'] Depends on the sound engineer (I know a lot of the b*ggers) - generally the better that they are the less nerdy they are........... [/quote] That's quite a big generalisation but being a sound engineer still means sod all. I like to count myself from within the ranks although would not consider myself "pro". I've tended to leave the mixing behind a little bit and get more into the deep science behind fourier analysis and mic placement as of late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1334312027' post='1614188'] That's quite a big generalisation but being a sound engineer still means sod all. I like to count myself from within the ranks although would not consider myself "pro". I've tended to leave the mixing behind a little bit and get more into the deep science behind fourier analysis and mic placement as of late. [/quote] There are a lot of people who call themselves sound engineers who couldn't mix concrete! They tend to be the ones who are the most nerdy about gear, mic placements and special techniques - the pros a lot less so.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I use an amp modeller and could not give a rat's ass about convincing or accurate. All I care about is can I get something usuable that sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334312293' post='1614198'] There are a lot of people who call themselves sound engineers who couldn't mix concrete! They tend to be the ones who are the most nerdy about gear, mic placements and special techniques - the pros a lot less so.... [/quote] Surely mic placement has the same or more influence on guitar tone than the actual amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334313563' post='1614233'] Surely mic placement has the same or more influence on guitar tone than the actual amp [/quote] Maybe in the studio but not in live situations from what I've been given to understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334312293' post='1614198'] There are a lot of people who call themselves sound engineers who couldn't mix concrete! They tend to be the ones who are the most nerdy about gear, mic placements and special techniques - the pros a lot less so.... [/quote] Actually I'm continuing on my research from my dissertation. Was going to go into a load of waffle about my research but cba with it. End of the day you're giving a definitive answer to something that definitely is NOT definitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334312293' post='1614198'] There are a lot of people who call themselves sound engineers who couldn't mix concrete! They tend to be the ones who are the most nerdy about gear, mic placements and special techniques - the pros a lot less so.... [/quote] We did some live studio recording with Ash Evans at his studio a couple of weeks ago [i](He was first to record Noah & the Whale, and Mumford & Sons, and has since worked with Emmy the Great, Sparkadia, and ASH to name a few. He is 1/3 of the band [url="http://http//soundcloud.com/emperoryes"]Emperor Yes[/url], does live sound for Three Trapped Tigers and CLARK and was responsible for setting up the [url="http://houseofstrange.wordpress.com/"]House of Strange[/url].). [/i]His approach is very quick and dirty. Hardly gives a sh*t about equipment (he has so good stuff though) and mic placement (as long as everything is phased properly). His philosphy is that the performance is everything, and that sound is a bit of an illusion, you can make a good performance sound great with reasonable sound quality, but the best sound quality can't make up for a poor or under-energised performance. On his desk he had an original Roland Space Echo. I said 'WOW! Those are very sought after' He said it's a piece of sh*t that takes 15 minutes after powering up to make remotely usable, and thinks free digital plug ins for delays are way better. He didn't care what amps our guitarist used as long as they were reasonably quiet - tried an old Vox (too noisy) went with a little Fender combo that was newish and just threw a mic in front of it. No pissing about. Told the four violinists to use their pickups, the mics only recording was poor, the pickups and a mic sounded so much better. He really liked the POD sounds I had so he just got me a big monitor and a tiny 4 channel mixer to play through in the room but the signal went strainght to the desk from the POD. Dums miced very simply (bass and snare miced with two Coles for overheads. Set them up and left them, no messing.) All this straight onto Logic Pro. I've heard the recording completely unmixed and the sounds are lovely. We are all delighted. Can't wait for the mixed versions. Edited April 13, 2012 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334313767' post='1614239'] Maybe in the studio but not in live situations from what I've been given to understand [/quote] Live situations it matters just as much, you just don't have the freedom to put a mic 3 metres away from a cab in a live situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334313815' post='1614244'] ... [/quote] Sounds like a man who has his method down and uses his ears more than most Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1334313920' post='1614248'] Sounds like a man who has his method down and uses his ears more than most [/quote] One funny thing was he put this large mic in front of Kit but she was having problems seeing her keys properly, it was also very heavy and the mic stand couldn't handle the weight and it started drooping a little bit. Kit asked if there were any alternatives, he said yeah, we can sling a SM58 in front of you. She asked if there would be a difference and he replied that her voice might not sound as lovely, but what the f***, if the great mic is inhibiting her performance, we'll use the Shure, and that's what we did. Still sounds lovely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334313767' post='1614239'] Maybe in the studio but not in live situations from what I've been given to understand [/quote] Why would it make any difference? Unless you're not using a PA to re-amp the guitar amp, in which case it's not a comparable situation If you've ever moved a mic around in front of a guitar amp with headphones on monitoring it, you will know the drastic differences in tones you can get just with placement. Obviously you need a decent sound coming out of a cab to mic up. My point is that the difference between a well set up modelling amp and the real thing, is minute compared to the difference between the real thing mic'd on the center of the cone or at the edge. There is a point where the subtleties are too subtle to matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334314479' post='1614267'] One funny thing was he put this large mic in front of Kit but she was having problems seeing her keys properly, it was also very heavy and the mic stand couldn't handle the weight and it started drooping a little bit. Kit asked if there were any alternatives, he said yeah, we can sling a SM58 in front of you. She asked if there would be a difference and he replied that her voice might not sound as lovely, but what the f***, if the great mic is inhibiting her performance, we'll use the Shure, and that's what we did. Still sounds lovely. [/quote] Kits got a great voice though from what I remember, a great mic will capture all that detail a good mic will capture a little less. Either way it's still capturing a great voice at the end of the day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1334313815' post='1614244'] We did some live studio recording with Ash Evans at his studio a couple of weeks ago [i](He was first to record Noah & the Whale, and Mumford & Sons, and has since worked with Emmy the Great, Sparkadia, and ASH to name a few. He is 1/3 of the band [url="http://http//soundcloud.com/emperoryes"]Emperor Yes[/url], does live sound for Three Trapped Tigers and CLARK and was responsible for setting up the [url="http://houseofstrange.wordpress.com/"]House of Strange[/url].). [/i]His approach is very quick and dirty. Hardly gives a sh*t about equipment (he has so good stuff though) and mic placement (as long as everything is phased properly). His philosphy is that the performance is everything, and that sound is a bit of an illusion, you can make a good performance sound great with reasonable sound quality, but the best sound quality can't make up for a poor or under-energised performance. On his desk he had an original Roland Space Echo. I said 'WOW! Those are very sought after' He said it's a piece of sh*t that takes 15 minutes after powering up to make remotely usable, and thinks free digital plug ins for delays are way better. He didn't care what amps our guitarist used as long as they were reasonably quiet - tried an old Vox (too noisy) went with a little Fender combo that was newish and just threw a mic in front of it. No pissing about. Told the four violinists to use their pickups, the mics only recording was poor, the pickups and a mic sounded so much better. He really liked the POD sounds I had so he just got me a big monitor and a tiny 4 channel mixer to play through in the room but the signal went strainght to the desk from the POD. Dums miced very simply (bass and snare miced with two Coles for overheads. Set them up and left them, no messing.) All this straight onto Logic Pro. I've heard the recording completely unmixed and the sounds are lovely. We are all delighted. Can't wait for the mixed versions. [/quote] [color=#222222]Just to be clear, I am talking about what an amp sounds like in a large room next to a drum kit in a gigging situation![/color] [color=#222222]My mate runs a company that has done many large tours / events (David Bowie and Glyndebourne Opera spring to mind) but make most of their money kitting out airport lounges throughout Europe, where a convincing guitar tone is not a factor but efficiency and pure sound quality most definitely are. [/color] [color=#222222]From what I understand, some studio engineers get misty eyed over old analogue gear while others prefer digital plug-ins but they pretty much all use pro-tools or similar these days. A lot of engineers would be pickier over recording the guitar than your guy (especially for rock) but they will all generally prefer the bass to go straight into the desk. Basically, whatever they find gets the best results for them as quickly as possible – I am not saying that there is not a role for digital stuff when recording, just that I don’t think that it is as good live…..[/color] Edited April 13, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334315266' post='1614298'] [color=#222222]am not saying that there is not a role for digital stuff when recording, just that I don’t think that it is as good live…..[/color] [/quote] If you're amped up through a mic, desk, PA then why would it sound any different to being amped up through a mic, desk, studio monitors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334315266' post='1614298'] Just to be clear, I am talking about what an amp sounds like in a large room next to a drum kit in a gigging situation! My mate runs a company that has done many large tours / events (David Bowie and Glyndebourne Opera spring to mind) but make most of their money kitting out airport lounges throughout Europe, where a convincing guitar tone is not a factor but efficiency and pure sound quality most definitely are. From what I understand, some studio engineers get misty eyed over old analogue gear while others prefer digital plug-ins but they pretty much all use pro-tools or similar these days. A lot of engineers would be pickier over recording the guitar than your guy (especially for rock) but they will all generally prefer the bass to go straight into the desk. Basically, whatever they find gets the best results for them as quickly as possible – I am not saying that there is not a role for digital stuff when recording, just that I don’t think that it is as good live….. [/quote] But if it can sound as good or better recorded then it can sound as good or better live. Sound is sound, whether it is on a disc or a PA system live Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Chedda beat me to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1334315601' post='1614303'] But if it can sound as good or better recorded then it can sound as good or better live. Sound is sound, whether it is on a disc or a PA system live [/quote] Recording in a studio and live are two completely different things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334315783' post='1614312'] Recording in a studio and live are two completely different things [/quote] As before, sound = sound. Bar various mic'ing techniques (which can obviously be discounted ) and double tracking what you can do in the studio you can do live Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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