Bach in 5ths Tuning on bass?

[Rob MacKillop]

I’ve played Bach’s cello suites on guitar, baroque lute, and tenor banjo. Playing them in 5ths tuning was a revelation. I’ve never been convinced they work well in standard bass tuning. Now I’m dreaming of playing them on a fretless bass in 5ths tuning. 
 

Anyone done this? 
 

What strings to use to get the tuning? 
 

Original keys are not something Bach was too concerned with, as he changed the 5th suite from Cm to Gm when arranging it for lute. So the bass would not have to be tuned to the cello tuning of CGDA (bass to treble), as long as they are in 5ths. Any ideas? 

Edited yesterday at 18:10 by Rob MacKillop

[nekomatic]

It's a secret (oops!) long-held ambition of mine to play these on bass one day, but setting up an instrument in 5ths specially seems a bit like cheating to me 😄

 

I guess one could play around with the D’Addario string tension calculator (there seem to be various string tension calculators online but as far as I can tell they all acknowledge D’Addario’s data), or just try some out. If you started from a standard 5-string set you could do BFCG using the B and G strings at pitch and the E and D strings respectively tuned up and down a tone, or from a 6-string set EBFC in a similar sort of way.

 

I do possess a 5-string fretless that I haven't settled on a stringing for yet, and a variety of secondhand strings, so I could have a go at some point and report back. I haven't properly started trying to learn fretless yet though, so I won't be sharing any attempts at playing Bach on it for a while…

[itu]

https://www.daddario.com/globalassets/pdfs/accessories/tension_chart_13934.pdf 

[Downunderwonder]

Easiest to do with a Ubass. Pukka tone too.

 

Fingerings on a 34" in 5ths not fun.

[Rob MacKillop]

7 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Easiest to do with a Ubass. Pukka tone too.

 

Fingerings on a 34" in 5ths not fun.

Cellists manage. Mind you, Bach’s cello suites were not written for the cello as we know it. Most scholars now agree he composed them for the violoncello da spalla, which is like an overgrown viola, played on the shoulder. You’ll find some videos on YouTube showing that. 

[Rob MacKillop]

Let’s see…

 

Cello: CGDA at 440 pitch or BbFCG at baroque 392 pitch

 

5-string bass: BEADG

 

Take out the A string: BEDG

 

From there you could get BbFCG

 

That wouldn’t be as good as having the best gauges for each note, but would do for getting an idea how it might sound, and how playable the music is. Tune to BbFCG, but imagine it is CGDA at baroque pitch. 
 

It could be done…

[zbd1960]

A=415 is the 'usual' baroque pitch which is a semi-tone down from A=440.

 

There is some debate that one of the suites was written for a 5 string cello.

 

What would probably work on a bass is the viola da gamba sonatas as viols are (mostly) tuned in 4ths. Viols have 6 strings, so you have the problem of a third in there. A bass viol is same size as a cello and the tuning from the bottom is D G C E A D with the bottom D being a tone up from a cello's bottom C.

 

The violone is the db size viol and it comes in two tunings. Either a a 5th down (octave below tenor viol tuning) at GCFADG or an octave down at DGCEAD. 

[Rob MacKillop]

Yes, I’m aware of all that, thanks. I forgot to mention I also play a 7-string Viola da gamba, but only well enough for the simpler Bach movements. 
 

It is thought that lute players still played circa French baroque pitch for solo work, but for ensemble work that could vary up and down depending where you were based. As a lute player, I often use all-gut strings at 392, sometimes even slightly lower if the instrument seems to want it. Baroque pitch is a musical feast. 
 

Yes, the 6th suite is for 5 strings, and the 5th suite has the first string down a tone. 
 

I’m not looking to arrange other music for the bass, just the cello suites, which I’ve been exploring on and off for 40 years or so. It’s always refreshing to explore them on different tunings and instruments. As I’m focused on the 4-string bass these days I thought I’d put some thought into how best to play them, and I quickly came to the conclusion that EADG would cause many problems. Once you’ve played them in 5ths tuning, and seen how perfectly they fit, it’s worth pondering at least how to emulate that on the bass. 
 

Hmm…maybe a piccolo bass 😎

Edited 7 hours ago by Rob MacKillop

[itu]

Using the D'Addario chart, and CGDA tuning instead of EADG, we get (here I use D = .060 ProSteel RW long scale string as a reference): 

 

A .040 @ 42.6 lbs. 

D .060 @ 45.2 lbs. 

G .090 @ 43.5 lbs. 

C .145 @ 41.9 lbs. 

 

G .040 @ 37.6 lbs. (or .045 @ 45.7 lbs.) 

D .060 @ 45.2 lbs. 

A .080 @ 43.7 lbs. 

E .105 @ 41.5 lbs. (or .110 @ 46.0 lbs.) 

 

There you go. 

 

By the way: Now you need two new basses that you assign to 5ths tuning. Do not forget the fretless. 

Edited 5 hours ago by itu

[itu]

Sorry, these sets were made with 440 Hz tuning! If want to do baroque tunings, too, there's need for a total of 4 basses! 

 

(Where is my coat?) 

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks, itu. Appreciated. I was contemplating the cheap Thomann fretless Beat Bass, £175, just for trying the project out, fingering-wise. I've already recorded the first three suites on a tenor and cello-banjo, so have experience of CGDA. 

 

Cello-banjo:

 

 

Edited 40 minutes ago by Rob MacKillop

[HeadlessBassist]

I've taken several Double Bass pupils through the Bach Suites - the short answer is no. You won't be able to stretch your hand enough to be able to use one finger per semitone on a fretted bass, especially for the broken chords. Some of the Double Bass editions are published in different keys to the Cello version, but I've always found it best to use the original keys and bring the low C's and D's up the octave for the odd occasion you need them. They seem to fit better under the fingers in the original keys, particularly for Double Bass. 

 

That way, it's only me that has a brain issue, as the suites are programmed into my head in Cello fingering and now we're playing it on Double Bass/Electric Bass tuned in 4ths. Aaargghh!

Edited 2 hours ago by HeadlessBassist

[itu]

@Rob MacKillop: that looks so easy and sounds good. Well done. You just have to do the same with basses, too. Middle section with a fretless? 

[Rob MacKillop]

44 minutes ago, HeadlessBassist said:

I've taken several Double Bass pupils through the Bach Suites - the short answer is no.

 

I wasn't contemplating playing them on a DB, though I have to say they can sound great on that instrument. I'll leave that for my next life! 

[Rob MacKillop]

10 minutes ago, itu said:

@Rob MacKillop: that looks so easy and sounds good. Well done. You just have to do the same with basses, too. Middle section with a fretless? 

 

That's kind of my point. In 5ths tuning, everything fits the hand beautifully. In standard bass tuning, life gets complicated. In 5ths, it's like Bach wrote them for that tuning...oh, wait a minute, he did! 🙂 You can see and feel him sitting down with a cello banjo (☺️) and working it all out. If I could get some of that on a fretless short-scale bass guitar, I'd be happy. 

[bass_dinger]

11 hours ago, zbd1960 said:

There is some debate that one of the suites was written for a 5 string cello.

 

Vivaldi only needed 4 strings.

 

And indeed, only 4 Seasons  

Edited 1 hour ago by bass_dinger

[HeadlessBassist]

Suite 5 was originally for a 5-string Cello. It appears in the Urtext and Peter's Editions. (And I think in the Paul Tortellier edited version too.)

 

[Rob MacKillop]

51 minutes ago, HeadlessBassist said:

Suite 5 was originally for a 5-string Cello. It appears in the Urtext and Peter's Editions. (And I think in the Paul Tortellier edited version too.)

 

Are you 100% sure about that? Edited versions cannot be trusted. I’ll have to look up the Anna Magdelena Bach manuscript again. My understanding is that it was for 4-strings with the first string down a tone, and that the 6th suite was for five strings. But I’m no Bach expert.