From other instruments to double bass

[Beedster]

On 07/10/2024 at 22:54, NickA said:

Tonight I played En Saga by Sibelius.  Bars and bars and bars ...and bars of the same repeated note ( often F on the E string)  I can only play it by clamping my hand around the neck and/or reinforcing my index finger with another on top of it.  Technique be damned, sometimes it's just survival.

 

...and some music is better heard than played.  Shan't be sorry if we don't do this one again.

 

Sounds like there might be a market for a double bass capo after all 👍

[tinyd]

3 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

I did a gig yesterday and someone came up to the singer and started telling her where she was going wrong. It was quite upsetting for her and I’d not want to make anyone else feel that way.

That's really bad. What's wrong with some people that makes them think this in any way appropriate? At the end of the day, your singer has the gig, she's getting up there and performing, and anybody who doesn't like her singing can go and play their own gigs. I hope she's ok.

[Burns-bass]

4 minutes ago, tinyd said:

That's really bad. What's wrong with some people that makes them think this in any way appropriate? At the end of the day, your singer has the gig, she's getting up there and performing, and anybody who doesn't like her singing can go and play their own gigs. I hope she's ok.

He was a drummer and wanted to “share his knowledge and experiences”, apparently. 

[Beedster]

Just now, Burns-bass said:

He was a drummer and wanted to “share his knowledge and experiences”, apparently. 

Rude/stupid/offensive things other 'musicians' have said about a band's performance to one or more members of that band is a whole new thread and I imagine a very long one 

[tinyd]

21 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

He was a drummer and wanted to “share his knowledge and experiences”, apparently. 

In my experience, people who have something to say that's worth hearing generally don't offer their "wisdom" unsolicited like this....

[hpc364]

Talking about things you can't achieve is easier than talking about things you can achieve, let them talk.

[NickA]

5 hours ago, Beedster said:

double bass capo after all 👍

My thoughts too.  I wondered about using cable ties, but getting them in place during a 5 bar rest would have been tough.

[Beedster]

21 minutes ago, NickA said:

My thoughts too.  I wondered about using cable ties, but getting them in place during a 5 bar rest would have been tough.

 

I have the sense that entirely pragmatic solutions might be frowned upon in orchestral circles? 

[SimonK]

This randomly came up on my youtube feed today and made me think of this thread - especially if double bass capos have already been mentioned!

 

So scores out of ten for his technique 🙂 ?

 

 

[hpc364]

1 hour ago, SimonK said:

This randomly came up on my youtube feed today and made me think of this thread - especially if double bass capos have already been mentioned!

 

So scores out of ten for his technique 🙂 ?

 

 

Since people like playing with low action, I wonder if double bassists want to sound like electric fretless basses.

 

I modified the bridge, the action was very high about 13 mm on the G string, now it's 9 mm.

I was sure it was around 8-9 mm but I didn't read very well when I was measuring.

 

Having known such an action, your double basses are not so different from electric basses for me.

 

That's bigger, that's sure.

 

It's not sarcasm because if I weren't there I wouldn't have modified my bridge.

 

So I thank you, now it's more comfortable, I'm not satisfied about the sound I get, maybe it comes from the strings, I modified the bridge after changing the strings.

Now I can play bad in thumb position, before that I was barely able to play a note.

 

Before

 

 

 

 

After the first modification

 

There I'm a bit out of rhythm and had a strange tone because I was surprised when I was in thumb position.

The sustain surprised me too when I was playing... I felt strange...

 

That was the first modification.

 

Edited October 27, 2024 by hpc364

[hpc364]

 

 

[NickA]

Not for me for sure.  Too much string noise.  Kinda thuddy.  

 

Sticking to spiros ..or Eva's if there's bowing to do that week ( usually)

Edited Monday at 20:20 by NickA

[hpc364]

14 hours ago, NickA said:

Not for me for sure.  Too much string noise.  Kinda thuddy.  

 

Sticking to spiros ..or Eva's if there's bowing to do that week ( usually)

Amen !

Some like them better than we do !

If they like them, I should like them.

Acoustically, they are weird but with amp, preamp, a bit of feedback when the strings are not touched, I can love them.

[The Guitar Weasel]

On 25/09/2024 at 10:46, tinyd said:

There seem to be a couple of things going on with this thread. There can definitely be a bit of a "joyless" approach taken by some experienced players towards people starting out that says that you'll only get decent after years of rigourous technique and lessons (I haven't heard anybody on Basschat take this approach btw). And then are other people who think that you should get a bass and just start playing and having fun. The two are not mutually exclusive, and as somebody who is self-taught (in the sense of having virtually no in-person lessons) I definitely think that just playing is possible. However, bad technique on DB more than most instruments can definitely hold you back - both in terms of causing pain/injury, but also (as @neilp points out above) in terms of playing in tune.

I'm not as good a player as I'd be if I'd adopted a more consistent/rigorous approach to playing and practicing, and I've had several points where I've had to re-learn and ditch bad habits (particularly after watching better players than myself in person or online). But I've always enjoyed the journey and so I guess what I'm saying is that DB is both fun AND challenging at the same time, but it's definitely worth paying attention to getting some of the basics right when it comes to technique. And there are people here on Basschat that can definitely help with this....
 

Yep there is a trend amongst some double bass players on here to be 'gatekeepers' ...  'you must suffer to gain enlightenment like we have'. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Burns-bass]

18 minutes ago, The Guitar Weasel said:

Yep there is a trend amongst some double bass players on here to be 'gatekeepers' ...  'you must suffer to gain enlightenment like we have'. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t think that’s really fair. People (including me) have politely suggested that over 300 years of technique might be worth studying, if only to avoid busting your hands up. 
 

Playing with low tension strings is fair enough. You don’t really need the “conventional” technique (note I didn’t say correct) but if someone new to DB tries that with Spiros or something else they could really hurt themselves.
 

It’s friendly advice from people who’ve have made mistakes. I’ve suffered with sore hands and injuries from poor technique and solving it has been a revelation.

 

I’d say advice is delivered in the same way your build thread has inspired others to approach restoring double basses on a sympathetic and professional way.

 

Anyway, good playing HP and hope you’re enjoying the gigs.

[hpc364]

"Gatekeeper" is a nice word, it makes me smile because it's exactly what I feel when I'm talking about my double bass journey.

There actually are "gatekeepers", they have never bothered me since I've never seen gates.

[The Guitar Weasel]

On 22/07/2025 at 14:35, Burns-bass said:

 

I don’t think that’s really fair. People (including me) have politely suggested that over 300 years of technique might be worth studying, if only to avoid busting your hands up. 
 

Playing with low tension strings is fair enough. You don’t really need the “conventional” technique (note I didn’t say correct) but if someone new to DB tries that with Spiros or something else they could really hurt themselves.
 

It’s friendly advice from people who’ve have made mistakes. I’ve suffered with sore hands and injuries from poor technique and solving it has been a revelation.

 

I’d say advice is delivered in the same way your build thread has inspired others to approach restoring double basses on a sympathetic and professional way.

 

Anyway, good playing HP and hope you’re enjoying the gigs.

Steel double bass strings only really started to become the norm from the 1950s onwards. During the majority of that 300 years folks were playing lower tension strings ... ie gut ... similar to the lower tension strings you are dismissive of. 

 

[Beer of the Bass]

1 hour ago, The Guitar Weasel said:

Steel double bass strings only really started to become the norm from the 1950s onwards. During the majority of that 300 years folks were playing lower tension strings ... ie gut ... similar to the lower tension strings you are dismissive of. 

 

 

I think typical earlier 20th century gut sets wouldn't have been all that low tension compared to modern specialist rockabilly slap sets - they were usually silver plated copper wound on the lower two strings, and with the higher action that was common, I'd say they wouldn't be easier on the left hand than my Spirocore mediums and lower setup. I think you mentioned elsewhere you were playing a "bumped" Rotosound nylon set? Unbumped, those might be similar in feel to traditional gut sets, but it would be fair to say you're working with an ultra low tension setup compared to most, which will probably give you more leeway in how you use the left hand. 

As a fan of higher tension steels myself, I feel like we don't use them out of some masochistic sense of what's "proper" or even to gatekeep out the noobs by making things unnecessarily hard, but simply because that's the sound I found inspiring and they're the most direct route to getting that out of the instrument. 

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, The Guitar Weasel said:

Steel double bass strings only really started to become the norm from the 1950s onwards. During the majority of that 300 years folks were playing lower tension strings ... ie gut ... similar to the lower tension strings you are dismissive of. 

 

 

I'm not sure what the chip on your shoulder is here, but as I've explained, I have played bass with low tension strings and really like them. I have owned, played, and enjoyed basses with these. My favourites were Golden Slaps. In fact, I'm doing a gig with them on Saturday. I recently played at a festival with gut strings and loved them.

 

The issue here seems to be that I politely suggested that someone new to double bass might benefit from a lesson or two on technique to avoid developing poor habits or hurting themselves.

 

Or, to put it in different terms.

 

You're an expert woodworker and instrument builder, right? If you spotted someone doing something with a drill or an adhesive that could potentially harm them, you'd probably say something. It's literally the same thing.

 

If you're getting the sound you like out of your bass, then good for you. Nobody cares, least of all me. Life is too short for this nonsense. I'm off to get some chips of my own with the kids. 

 

[hpc364]

44 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

I'm not sure what the chip on your shoulder is here, but as I've explained, I have played bass with low tension strings and really like them. I have owned, played, and enjoyed basses with these. My favourites were Golden Slaps. In fact, I'm doing a gig with them on Saturday. I recently played at a festival with gut strings and loved them.

 

The issue here seems to be that I politely suggested that someone new to double bass might benefit from a lesson or two on technique to avoid developing poor habits or hurting themselves.

 

Or, to put it in different terms.

 

You're an expert woodworker and instrument builder, right? If you spotted someone doing something with a drill or an adhesive that could potentially harm them, you'd probably say something. It's literally the same thing.

 

If you're getting the sound you like out of your bass, then good for you. Nobody cares, least of all me. Life is too short for this nonsense. I'm off to get some chips of my own with the kids. 

 

Well, the truth is that the only time I hurt myself by playing happened with bass guitar : some blisters, tennis elbow, hands that have been paralysed for few seconds (scary).

With the double bass, except my head that can hit the machine heads, nothing has never happened.

[hpc364]

15 hours ago, Beer of the Bass said:

 

I think typical earlier 20th century gut sets wouldn't have been all that low tension compared to modern specialist rockabilly slap sets - they were usually silver plated copper wound on the lower two strings, and with the higher action that was common, I'd say they wouldn't be easier on the left hand than my Spirocore mediums and lower setup. I think you mentioned elsewhere you were playing a "bumped" Rotosound nylon set? Unbumped, those might be similar in feel to traditional gut sets, but it would be fair to say you're working with an ultra low tension setup compared to most, which will probably give you more leeway in how you use the left hand. 

As a fan of higher tension steels myself, I feel like we don't use them out of some masochistic sense of what's "proper" or even to gatekeep out the noobs by making things unnecessarily hard, but simply because that's the sound I found inspiring and they're the most direct route to getting that out of the instrument. 

They say that Scott LaFaro was the first to use low action with gut strings.

I've always been into sax, trumpet and guitar players so I wasn't so interested in piano players so I didn't listened to Bill Evans.

The name of LaFaro sounded so obscure to me because of Ornette Coleman.

Now I can say, I enjoy him more than before, and much more when I knew he started to play the double bass seven years before he died.

[The Guitar Weasel]

16 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

 

I'm not sure what the chip on your shoulder is here, but as I've explained, I have played bass with low tension strings and really like them. I have owned, played, and enjoyed basses with these. My favourites were Golden Slaps. In fact, I'm doing a gig with them on Saturday. I recently played at a festival with gut strings and loved them.

 

The issue here seems to be that I politely suggested that someone new to double bass might benefit from a lesson or two on technique to avoid developing poor habits or hurting themselves.

 

Or, to put it in different terms.

 

You're an expert woodworker and instrument builder, right? If you spotted someone doing something with a drill or an adhesive that could potentially harm them, you'd probably say something. It's literally the same thing.

 

If you're getting the sound you like out of your bass, then good for you. Nobody cares, least of all me. Life is too short for this nonsense. I'm off to get some chips of my own with the kids. 

 

The chip on my shoulder is that the state of private music tuition in this country is appalling. I will explain: for longer than I've been any sort of woodworker or instrument builder - or in fact, what I do say to day now - owner of a pickup winding company - I've taught music. I've always been foremost a musician - but to supplement that income I had a music shop in the 80s/90s and after that worked at a local FE college where my role required I become a qualified teacher. This opened my eyes to the fact that a great many people teaching instruments privately are a. a waste of money for the student, and b. creatively stifling for the student unless the want to learn the teacher's 'pet' genre of music. To many so called teachers, it's about money and no more (or a bizarre ego trip). They don't take time to find out what the student wants to learn, they don't put in the effort to prepare course work tailored for the individual and the type of music they want to play - they just apply a 'cookie cutter' one size fits all approach and take the money.  Frankly students would be better seeking out the right sort of YouTube lessons and perhaps even paying for one to one tuition or small group (usually via Patreon ets) from someone on that platform who has a style they admire or want to learn. 

I hate to see folks waste money - and a huge amount of personal music tuition today is just that, a waste of money. If you are going to go to a tutor then go to one who teaches what you want to learn. Ask the right questions, seek out other students that have been taught by that person ... but don't just blindly go to someone who is supposed to be a good player ... because they can be that and a crappy teacher at the same time. 

Edited 12 hours ago by The Guitar Weasel

[hpc364]

49 minutes ago, The Guitar Weasel said:

The chip on my shoulder is that the state of private music tuition in this country is appalling. I will explain: for longer than I've been any sort of woodworker or instrument builder - or in fact, what I do say to day now - owner of a pickup winding company - I've taught music. I've always been foremost a musician - but to supplement that income I had a music shop in the 80s/90s and after that worked at a local FE college where my role required I become a qualified teacher. This opened my eyes to the fact that a great many people teaching instruments privately are a. a waste of money for the student, and b. creatively stifling for the student unless the want to learn the teacher's 'pet' genre of music. To many so called teachers, it's about money and no more (or a bizarre ego trip). They don't take time to find out what the student wants to learn, they don't put in the effort to prepare course work tailored for the individual and the type of music they want to play - they just apply a 'cookie cutter' one size fits all approach and take the money.  Frankly students would be better seeking out the right sort of YouTube lessons and perhaps even paying for one to one tuition or small group (usually via Patreon ets) from someone on that platform who has a style they admire or want to learn. 

I hate to see folks waste money - and a huge amount of personal music tuition today is just that, a waste of money. If you are going to go to a tutor then go to one who teaches what you want to learn. Ask the right questions, seek out other students that have been taught by that person ... but don't just blindly go to someone who is supposed to be a good player ... because they can be that and a crappy teacher at the same time. 

I'm now playing with a pianist who has never been a pianist, he is a classical percussionist, pitched percussions, but he is also into jazz.

He taught himself to play the piano (I also play the piano, I learnt to play figured bass when I was a student) and he is playing Keith Jarrett tunes and of course jazz standards.

Professional classical musicians are so open-minded sometimes...

A very cool guy !

Before I played the double bass, I was more into 7 string guitar, in a jazz style, and didn't play the bass guitar anymore.

Less than two years ago an amateur big band needed a bass player, so I said to myself, why not ?

I knew some double bass techniques but YouTube helped me a lot.

The more difficult in the double bass is to have a good set-up.

I did it all on my own !

I'm a double bass player now but not a real one, someone asked me if I wanted to play in a classical ensemble, you can guess what I answered with a little smile.

 

Those strings helped me to get a "personal" sound but they are very limited, even if I bow them sometimes, they are not made for that.

 

I said NO ! It's another world ! Even if the first months I practiced Édouard Nanny exercises, I stopped it because of my new strings.

 

Good and bad string choice !

Edited 12 hours ago by hpc364

[The Guitar Weasel]

Depends what you mean by real 'real' bass player. To me that means providing a groove and a framework that the music hangs on like a dress on a beautiful model. Working with a drummer to weave the underpinnings of something greater than the sum of the parts. To be able on occasion to launch out and play a blistering run, sure ... but to be the rock and the foundation that gives folks a good time when they listen to your band. Bass playing to me is a strange combination of joy and discipline. Utterly intoxicating when you are all in the groove. 

Personally while I listen to the odd bit of Mozart first thing in the morning to calm shattered nerves when I see what's in store for another day in the workshop - that's as far as it goes -  even though my wife was a production manager at the Royal Albert Hall for over ten years, and I had the opportunity to both hear top notch classical music for free - I mostly took a pass on it. It has very little relevance to my experience of music growing up - with my mother a  jazz/dance band pianist and my aunt a 'teddy girl' who played me all her rock and roll and rockabilly singles while she babysat me as a toddler. My experience from my wife's time at the Albert Hall was that while most professional classical musicians are lovely people and hugely dedicated, a great many classical music fans are snobbish bores who see no further than the ends of their noses.  🙂  

Edited 11 hours ago by The Guitar Weasel

[hpc364]

12 minutes ago, The Guitar Weasel said:

Depends what you mean by real 'real' bass player. To me that means providing a groove and a framework that the music hangs on like a dress on a beautiful model. Working with a drummer to weave the underpinnings of something greater than the sum of the parts. To be able on occasion to launch out and play a blistering run, sure ... but to be the rock and the foundation that gives folks a good time when they listen to your band. Bass playing to me is a strange combination of joy and discipline. Utterly intoxicating when you are all in the groove. 

Personally while I listen to the odd bit of Mozart first thing in the morning to calm shattered nerves when I see what's in store for another day in the workshop - but even though my wife was a production manager at the Royal Albert Hall, and I had the opportunity to both hear top notch classical music for free - I mostly took a pass on it. It has very little relevance to my experience of music growing up - with my mother a  jazz/dance band pianist and my aunt a 'teddy girl' who played me all her rock and roll and rockabilly singles while she babysat me as a toddler. My experience from my wife's time at the Albert Hall was that while most professional classical musicians are lovely people and hugely dedicated, a great many classical music fans are snobbish bores who see no further than the ends of their noses.  🙂  

Well, about theory I'm classical trained, jazz theory is easier.

Terms are different between the two worlds, sometimes jazzers call tonal what is modal in classical music.

When jazzers talk about harmony they overthink what it's supposed to be simple and it's actually simple.

They sometimes play inversions or substitutions thinking they are genius and overthink them with a lot of esoteric and philosophical feelings. Some don't even understand them and hate them, and want the rhythmic section to work like a karaoke tape.

With classical players, you don't have to explain, they know what's happening.

Since nothing is really written, ears are wild open (in a trio context).

Real bass players : they bow.