Sub at back of stage ......... feedback???

[TheRev]

12 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

And the added hazard that the acoustics change throughout the evening as the room fills and people stand up to dance. Do you use the upright? That's gotta be even more difficult in a skittle alley.

 

My upright is about as feedback resistant as its possible to get, the problem is the sound bouncing all over the place - impossible to get a clean sound for anything.

 

31 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

There is live music in Dorchester

Tom Brown's does music fairly regularly?

The cider festival in Borough Gardens is always entertaining.

[Phil Starr]

18 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

Could he use one of those sensor optogate type devices that turns off the mic unless he is in range of the sensor?  

I don't see why not, although drummers move around a lot and that could also be an issue about keeping right on top of the mic. I struggle to coordinate bv's and playing bass so I can't imagine playing drums and singing.

[Phil Starr]

9 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Still need to work on a way to get the drum vocals working without feedback from monitor and bleed/feedback from kick drum/Snare Mics.  SM57 on Snare (rim) - wonder whether an overhead might work better ????

 

I'm surprised you mic the snare which is generally pretty loud rather than using an overhead. Kick is often a bit lost in the mix so that is always the first drum to be miked up. I'd then go for something to pick up the reat of the kit though i's point it at the snare. I wouldn't expecting you getting too much bleed on the drum mic's just because the drums are so loud. Feedback is surprising for the same reason with loud sounds you don't need as much gain so gain before feedback should be less of an issue. Are you using compression on the drums? If so backing that off might cure your feedback, also look at moving the kick mic. The kick drum with a hole in the front skin is a big Helmholtz reaonator  so poking the mic into the hole area can find a resonant point and moving it a few cm can make a difference.

 

There's loads of stuff on mic-ing up drums on You Tube This one is fairly basic but covers quite a bit of ground to start you off

Once you start watching these your evenings won't be your own though

[Pirellithecat]

Yep - had a look at mic'ing up the drums differently - I guess the Glynn Johns idea is a good compromise between  complexity and sound quality.    However, i have to remember that there are things I can affect and those I can't - e.g. I suggested a "better" mic for the drum vocals - drummer just bought a Chinese clone of a Shure SM58 (maybe?) but it does have an off/on switch! 

I think I can move the  kick drum mic to see if I can reduce the unwanted frequencies and maybe reduce the vocal mic gain, but not much to do in terms of compression as I don't use it on the drums or the drum vocals.  I really should have bought a digital desk as there's so much more frequency control options and the "gate" idea might be something to think about (although the comment about the volume of the drums be trumping any vocal input strikes a chord).  

Anyway a few things to tweak .... everyday's a school day!  

Thanks for all the advice.

[Downunderwonder]

14 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

But kick drum .... no clue! 

If your desk is digital you could try low passing it as it goes in.

[Phil Starr]

Talking about this with a mate yesterday (I'm such a boring man) and his drummer is using a Yamaha EAD 10. basically a miking system and drum brain combined tht clips onto the kick and mics the whole kit. Thankfully our drummer uses an electronic kit so I'd not come across this before.

 

[Chienmortbb]

12 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

If it’s a super cardioid then the dead spot is at the side.

The dead spot of of a super or hyper cardioid is approx 120 degrees. The cardio pick up pattern is also three dimensional (think of an apple). The rear of the microphone does have a fair amount of pick up as there is a small but noticeable lobe at 180°. This is why you should not put a monitor speaker directly in line with a super or hyper cardiod microphone. 
 

Popular super or hyper cardiod include, Shure Beta 58A, Sontronics Solo ( I use these) and Sennheiser E865 and E945. 

[Phil Starr]

15 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

The dead spot of of a super or hyper cardioid is approx 120 degrees. The cardio pick up pattern is also three dimensional (think of an apple). The rear of the microphone does have a fair amount of pick up as there is a small but noticeable lobe at 180°. This is why you should not put a monitor speaker directly in line with a super or hyper cardiod microphone. 
 

Popular super or hyper cardiod include, Shure Beta 58A, Sontronics Solo ( I use these) and Sennheiser E865 and E945. 

Yes, it's worth knowing your mic, my posts are often over long so I didn't go into this too much. the Shure Beta 58 is interesting as it sits somewhere between the cardioid response of the SM58 and most super cardioids. If memeory serves Shure put the 'dead spot' at 135deg. I used to use my own technique with a three mics on the drums. One overhead points across the kit at the snare and one above the hi-hat at the floor toms.  You could adjust the height/distance fromthe hi-hat and the cymbals to balance the volumes with the toms and the same on the opposite side with the cymbals. The kick mounted toms were picked up by both mics so you could get quite a reasonable balance by careful mic positioning. There are a lot of three mic techniques out there but it depends upon the kit and knowing the exact pick up patterns of your mics.

 

I have to say the Yamaha looks like a godsend for a pub band though. It's ages since I played a pub with enough space to put up two overheads

 

[Chienmortbb]

beta 58a polar response.

 

 

[Phil Starr]

16 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

 

beta 58a polar response.

 

Memory did fail me then 😂 

 

That picture does illustrate the fairly 'soft' dispersal pattern of the Beta which I quite like when I'm singing as it means you don't have to be quite as centred on the mic which makes things easier when you are playing an instrument at the same time. It's a clearly deliberate attempt at making it the most 'SM58' like modern mic. Most super-cardioids are tighter than the Shure which IME makes them more demanding to use but helps with feedback rejection. Anyway it's a bit of a thread de-rail other than to say to think about your mic's pick up patten when dealing with feedback issues. Using something genuinely super ar hyper-cardioid for the drummers vocal mic would help. The Audix OM7 would be a go to but an AKG D5 might be a good cheaper option

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 28 by Phil Starr

[Pirellithecat]

This is all good!    Short of buying the drummer a new Mic ('cos he won't!) it's probably worth redoubling the effort put into Mic/Monitor placement and trying to reduce Mic sensitivity.   So all this info is great .... I might "borrow" an SM58 beta to see if I can convince him to invest though .......

[JPJ]

On 26/02/2024 at 23:58, Pirellithecat said:

Yep - had a look at mic'ing up the drums differently - I guess the Glynn Johns idea is a good compromise between  complexity and sound quality.

The only issue I have with the Glynn Johns method is that he was predominantly a studio engineer, and in your average pub band live environment, your guitar and bass amps are going to be behind the drum mics, so even well focused overheads will pick up some bleed. This is why I prefer close mic’ing of the kit, and then a gate to slam the mic shut as soon as the hit has dissipated. 

[Pirellithecat]

Tried a few "tricks " on a very small stage area on Saturday.   Seemed to help.
Repositioned Drum Monitor as far as possible (slightly behind drummer - he sings at almost 90 degrees to front of stage..)
Removed kick drum from drum monitor and increased it FOH (seemed to provide enough "extra" kick on stage minus the feedback (??)
Put everything into FOH - albeit at low volumes (apart from vocals).
Reduced ALL monitor levels

Turned my bass down!!!! on the basis that if I'm less loud the guitar will sound louder (relatively) on stage therefore reducing the tendency to increase the (guitar) volume.
Used IEM's

Best sound we've ever had out front! (Yep - I get to wander about in the audience to check everything's OK at Sound check and then in the first song in both sets). 

NB  I didn't tell the band I'd done any of this, just nodded when given instructions and carried on regardless - I don't believe they noticed anything except absence of problems and great sound!! 

Need to work on IEM's though .... so  hoping to get a few more tips on a new thread. 

I'd like to explore gating the drum Mic, but he does move around a lot, and whilst the expensive mic'ing options are very attractive the expense seems a limiting factor.  

So, once again, Thanks for the engagement and helpful advice. 

 

[JPJ]

The biggest improvement to our sound came from drastically dropping the onstage volume. The guitarists went from 100w Marshall's with 4x12 cabs to 45w combos running on half power, and I'm down from a 1500W amp head and twin 4x10's to a 400w 1x15 combo. My back loves me again, the band love the fact we can hear after a gig, and the punters seem to notice no difference.