Buget practice rig to sound like PA?

[DocTrucker]

What options would be recommended for a practice & rehersal (guitarist has loud but physically small marshall valve amp) amp/speaker setup that adds minimal tonal change to what comes off my preamped pedal board?

 

I would like to get to the point where I have my tones sorted as far as possible in a quiet environment before plugging a balanced feed from my pedal board into a PA. This would best be portable as our common rehersal space uses an ashdown 4x10 combo, which I'm assuming colours the tone as I was struggling to make it sound brighter on last rehersal.

 

I am playing covers with a guitarist and drummer with an aim to hit band open mic nights later next year. Plenty of growing left to do in my playing but I really struggle with my hearing (a-symetric loss on right with aid - off for rehersal!) in a noisey environment, and in such a situation the subtlies of my tone are lost on me. I am not likely to be capable to tweak for tone in a live environment.

 

Edit: Budget is key here and I'm researching at the moment before spending later next year. Don't mind having a period of waiting for the right second hand deal on specific components.

Edited December 21, 2023 by DocTrucker
Final clarification.

[DocTrucker]

Apollogies missed the obvious. I have a Laney RB3 practice combo amp. With the dials all neutral is this as colour free as you would get from a typical PA?

 

Not sure if this would cope in rehersal, but can always try.

[Jack]

Thee amp is probably adding in quite a bit of its own flavour, don't be fooled by the knobs being at noon, that doesn't mean much.

 

Plenty of people using pa cabs as stage amps. I've got a pair of QSC K12.2s, people using everything from the budget to the esoteric.

[DocTrucker]

@Jack cheers.

I'll focus efforts on a generic power amp (with good Hz range) and passive PA cabinets.

[Downunderwonder]

Not many passive PA cabs are much chop with bass.

 

My best advice is worry about tone way less for the meantime. Make a bass noise and crack on with learning to play bass.

[tauzero]

Do the band open mic nights in question run bass through the PA?

[DocTrucker]

@tauzero I know the rehersal studio doesn't like the Idea of me plugging into their PA, it's intended for vocals only. Hadn't really considered that the open mics maybe the same. That would dictate minimum spend as the practice rig would need to be big enough for the open mic too rather than simply being tone neutral.

Edited December 22, 2023 by DocTrucker

[Downunderwonder]

Now we're getting somewhere...

 

Yes, get a rig proper. It has to be able to keep up with the drums at whatever level is appropriate for not being obnoxious. A 15 or 210 should be enough for most open mic situations with a vocal PA.

[DocTrucker]

I heard a long time ago that stereo hearing doesn't work too well woth bass frequencies. Hence home cinemas tending to have one sub. Is that still the current understanding?

 

As folk have already said not many subs are rated down to the ~30Hz needed for  low B on a 5 or 6 string.

[tauzero]

I use a Tecamp Puma 900 plus a BC house jam microcab (200W 6" speaker) for the open mic night that I take a bass amp to, it keeps up happily with the vocal PA but the only drumming is a cajon so might be a bit limited for your purposes. How important is weight?

[tauzero]

Also, have you scouted out the open mics you want to go to and checked what their provision is for PA and provided backline?

[DocTrucker]

Yeah, started to scout. Early days though. I've  been putting it off as I recently had to stop drinking. There's only so much lemonade (1 is more than enough!) you can take! I will search for a partner in crime for scouting. With two kids under 6 alas my wife isn't the ideal answer.

 

To be honest I think the amount of work needed to do a decent job on this is quite a bit larger than I thought. Interesting, but will need a fair bit morw time and cash to sort properly. By which point I guess it maybe getting close to the band needing a PA, at which point it may as well be specced to be bass capable.

[Jack]

5 hours ago, DocTrucker said:

... To be honest I think the amount of work needed to do a decent job on this is quite a bit larger than I thought... 

Nonsense. 

 

Plenty of people on here, myself included, like to pretend that this stuff is complicated but it isn't. Buy a small Ashdown or TC electronic combo. Maybe a 12" or 15" if you can carry it. Just play. 

[Downunderwonder]

7 hours ago, DocTrucker said:

PA, .....specced to be bass capable

Lofty mate!

 

I doubt half the members here gig with bass capable PA's. It isn't necessary for pub gigs. A kick drum is a very loud thing just by itself. Don't get so loud you can't hear the kick and all will be well.

[tauzero]

9 hours ago, DocTrucker said:

To be honest I think the amount of work needed to do a decent job on this is quite a bit larger than I thought. Interesting, but will need a fair bit morw time and cash to sort properly. By which point I guess it maybe getting close to the band needing a PA, at which point it may as well be specced to be bass capable.

 

What are your eventual intentions as regards gigging? Have any of you gigged before? If you're going to be a trio playing in pubs, a reasonable vocal PA (or vocal plus guitar) and backline (either bass and guitar or bass only) would handle your needs.

[Mottlefeeder]

12 hours ago, DocTrucker said:

...

As folk have already said not many subs are rated down to the ~30Hz needed for  low B on a 5 or 6 string.

You may need 30Hz for the kick drum, or a synth bass, but for normal low B 5-string work you will sound better if you filter out the bottom octave and just amplify 60Hz and upwards. The bottom octave just makes your sound muddy.

David

[DocTrucker]

Apologies, I  think I wasn't clear on my original objective. Probably confused things with thinking about overlap with the PA.

 

I have originally purchased a Digbeth pre amp to help me get most of my tone nailed beford it left my board. I've noticed that running through my Laney RB3 and the old Ashdown 4 x 10 combo at rehersal sound completely different. I struggle to get tone sorted in noisey/rushed environments, in part due to severe hearing loss in one ear. While I am likely to be using the wrong terminology the bass end was great no the Ashdown, but I struggled to get any clarity out of it. The attack on the notes seemed dulled.

 

I was hoping to set myself up with a practice rig whose amplifier wouldn't manipulate the tone, just as close as possible to pure amplify. This would only need to cover me opto small pub gigs.

 

Is a traditional bass rig with a decent quality Class D amp fed signal from a balanced out from my preamp/effects processor (with EQ & amp emulation if required) the answer here? Even if a typical bass cabinet maybe be capable of shaking the optics if I'm running a solid state rather than valve amp I'm free to wind it back right?

 

From what people have been saying the drums largely set the volume requirements. My initial guess is a 200W RMS capable amp would be enough?

Edited December 23, 2023 by DocTrucker

[Downunderwonder]

Watts are cheap. 200 will do most of the time but better to have a bit more just in case.

 

The rehearsal cab could well be faulty. One blown driver will sound pretty bad as it flaps in reverse, at the same time interfering with cab tuning for the remainders.

 

You only have to be as loud as the drums and everyone has to stay under the vocals. So really you only have to be loud enough to keep up with the vocal but that's very hard to judge while standing next to the drum set.

 

In the bush league you rely on audience feedback to dial it all back if your vocals are being drowned out.

 

A drummer with experience and taste will play according to what the PA can do and what the room needs.

 

Sometimes cookie monster vocals are what the room expects. That's what you get when the PA is hopeless outgunned by the band, not my thing at all, but it is a style in some venues. 200w would not work without a bigarse cabinet.

[DocTrucker]

With my doggy hearing I'm all for a quiet stage for sure! I'd gig with my drum isolation headphones if I could easily mic the room and sort levels to the headphones!

 

Reading around on amps and stacks it appears the Ashdown systems impart quite a warm tone. Perhaps I'm just seeing a stark contrast between my little 60W Laney RB3 practice combo and the rehersal room's MAG300ish 4x10 combo.

[Downunderwonder]

If your bandmates are also happy going down the IEM route then by all means take it. No bass cab lugging for you!

[Phil Starr]

If you already have hearing loss then you need to be thinking very seriously about in-ears from the start. I'm no medical expert but just turning off your aids is not going to stop the same level of energy reaching your ears. Even at an open mic with an unknown PA its possible to use an ambient mic to run your in-ears and hear the same mess of sound as everyone else but at a lower and safer level.

 

Most band nights will either provide some simple back line or someone will lend you something so you may be able to play if you choose the right mic night. No guarantees but a bit of research might pay dividends and give you more time to sort out a longer term solution. 

 

So the advice David  gave you about the bottom octave is correct, You really don't need to worry about 30Hz and a B string. They sound rich and thick because of the harmonics, we can barely hear 30Hz and in any case because of the positioning of the pickups there is almost no 30Hz passed to the amp anyway. Most mid to high priced PA cabs will handle bass as well as a bass cab and many of us gig with PA cabs quite happily, I've actually done Jam nights with a single RCF310 as the drums at these things tend to be stripped down ancient kits without the volume of most bands 'real' kits. Are you proposing to use your MAG with a passive cab as backline or will you buy in an active bass cab to do the job? 

 

The theory of using flat response systems and using your Digbeth for tone shaping is a good one. I've gone down that route and it does simplify set up even if it isn't quite as simple as it sounds on paper. The Ashdown has a pre shaped tone and I found it dull sounding when I had one. Great amps but they are coloured with the Ashdown tone and that may be fighting the Digbeth. The RB3 is probably just as coloured but in different ways. Don't be scared to eq the Ashdown differently when using the Digbeth.

 

The other thing to consider is speaker placing and room acoustics. You may be using the Laney in tilt back mode with the speaker pointed at your ears and the 4x10 pointing at the back of your legs where you lose  all the upper mids and treble. Your home practice space might be a bit livelier than the rehearsal room or the 4x10 might be jammed into a corner and just moving it might improve things.

 

If you want to try the in-ears/ambient mic route let me know and I'll give you a quick run down. Look after the hearing you have though

[Jack]

7 hours ago, DocTrucker said:

Apologies, I  think I wasn't clear on my original objective. Probably confused things with thinking about overlap with the PA.

 

I have originally purchased a Digbeth pre amp to help me get most of my tone nailed beford it left my board. I've noticed that running through my Laney RB3 and the old Ashdown 4 x 10 combo at rehersal sound completely different. I struggle to get tone sorted in noisey/rushed environments, in part due to severe hearing loss in one ear. While I am likely to be using the wrong terminology the bass end was great no the Ashdown, but I struggled to get any clarity out of it. The attack on the notes seemed dulled.

 

I was hoping to set myself up with a practice rig whose amplifier wouldn't manipulate the tone, just as close as possible to pure amplify. This would only need to cover me opto small pub gigs.

 

Is a traditional bass rig with a decent quality Class D amp fed signal from a balanced out from my preamp/effects processor (with EQ & amp emulation if required) the answer here? Even if a typical bass cabinet maybe be capable of shaking the optics if I'm running a solid state rather than valve amp I'm free to wind it back right?

 

From what people have been saying the drums largely set the volume requirements. My initial guess is a 200W RMS capable amp would be enough?

Ahhhh OK then. Well there are several threads on he covering what you describe. The term you want is FRFR. I think the Thomann stuff (branded, 'The Box') and the Headrush are well liked in the budget space. 

 

Side note. Be a aware that tone changes a LOT with volume. Unfortunately you can't really set your tone at home then just expect the knobs in the same position at the gig to sound the same. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Jack

[DocTrucker]

8 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

If you want to try the in-ears/ambient mic route let me know and I'll give you a quick run down. Look after the hearing you have though

 

Can this be done on the cheap with an analogue mixer, room mic, and drum isolation headphones? In ears are no good for me. Guessing it really needs to be seperate headphone amps for each member?

[Phil Starr]

7 minutes ago, DocTrucker said:

 

Can this be done on the cheap with an analogue mixer, room mic, and drum isolation headphones? In ears are no good for me. Guessing it really needs to be seperate headphone amps for each member?

It can, there's nothing complex about it in theory mic->headphone amp-> headphones. There's a simple shortcut though; use a small digital recorder and plug the headphones in directly so you re using the internal mic and headphone amp. I've a little Olympus voice recorder (WS650), about the size of an old iPod which you can fix to a lanyard around your neck or to a mic stand. Other brands are available of course. You'll be dependent upon the on stage sound but on the plus side it's completely free standing with no connection to anything so you can carry your monitoring with you anywhere and you'll pick up all the chatter on stage.

[DocTrucker]

That's a great idea thanks!