Not-American Classics?

[Greene-Mann]

I agree with loads of you guys on the, Burns, Burns/Baldwin, Hayman, Shergold, Wal...

I think pretty much all of us would trade any american classic for a Wal any day

I certainly would...

[XB26354]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='469377' date='Apr 22 2009, 10:41 AM']You look at what happens with basses today: The ultra-modern, "exotic-fish-nailed-to-ladder"-style custom 5, 6 or more strings and all that, ultimately what they are is the same notion as the super-strat, i.e. you take the principle that was established with the Jazz bass and you push it so far into nerdy tonewoods and active EQ gadgetry that you can't even begin to imagine a style of music complex enough to warrant it, just like when you get a guitar that has 10 pickup configurations and a coil-split and a massive whammy bar and locking this and that and the other, and a top that looks more like a 15th century French dresser than a musical instrument. They're second-generation variants that started out with the ultra-light super-japs and went from there. On the other hand, whatever Gibson started for some reason never really happened. A few people still play Grabbers and T-Birds and you might even see a Les Paul bass here and there, but Gibson isn't really a name that springs to mind when you think "what bass could I get".

Not sure where I'm going with this, but I guess that although the teen market is something that obviously needs to be catered to with the Yamahas and the SDGRs and the Rockbasses and so on, I think that most of the kids who stick with bass will eventually arrive at the same conclusion, which is that there's a good reason people keep going back to the originals.

AND might I add, when you look at the signature models that are coming out these days that are aimed at teens, the dude from Green Day, the dude from Blink 182, the dude from Fall Out Boy, they're Fender Jazzes and Precisions.[/quote]

Er. What?
Well I guess Victor Bailey had better hand back his mahogany/rosewood/koa Jazz Bass signature then.

This is all preconceptions regardless of the player - i.e. play a Fender and you'll be good, play simple music for simple people, and you're "real" Play something with more than 4-strings or no Fender on the headstock and you're a poncey show off who'll overplay. Jaco played Fenders, two of the best Nashville bass players use Warwick 5-strings. Anthony Jackson, one of (imho) the most innovative and funky players ever to pick up a bass plays a 6-string with 28 frets!

Fender didn't make a 5 (used by plenty of pros all over the world) until years after other manufacturers had thought of it, designed it and perfected it. These are not super-strats. They had active eq and proper humbuckers, radically different designs (Steinberger to Jaydee to Yamaha), totally different construction methods and even, gasp, no headstock! Super strats look like strats with some bells and whistles (a testament to how conservative guitar players are compared to bass players). This year Fender unveils their first ever 6-string - the Steve Bailey - perhaps one of the ugliest Fenders ever made. Fender will be here for as long as people play bass, but they will never be the only option (if only for their cheap construction and poor quality control on US gear).

Back to topic... I'd suggest the Warwick Thumb, not because I particularly like it, just remember it being a big hit at the time of release, and having briefly owned a 5, it had an unbelievable tone that would cut through anything. Very distinctive shape too (and still made today).

[maxrossell]

[quote name='XB26354' post='470192' date='Apr 22 2009, 11:25 PM']Er. What?
Well I guess Victor Bailey had better hand back his mahogany/rosewood/koa Jazz Bass signature then. [/quote]

Not really a model aimed at teens though, is it?

[quote]This is all preconceptions regardless of the player - i.e. play a Fender and you'll be good, play simple music for simple people, and you're "real" Play something with more than 4-strings or no Fender on the headstock and you're a poncey show off who'll overplay. Jaco played Fenders, two of the best Nashville bass players use Warwick 5-strings. Anthony Jackson, one of (imho) the most innovative and funky players ever to pick up a bass plays a 6-string with 28 frets![/quote]

And once again, when you're dealing with teens, that tends to be true. The generalisations do have a foundation in reality. When I was growing up, the kids who had Fenders or aspired to Fenders played with picks, backed up rhythm lines and didnt really care that much about technique as long as the music rocked. The kids who had 5-strings or aspired to 5-strings, or six-strings, or active EQs or modern style basses, tended to overplay, to slap and pop all over the place, and generally to try to take their playing to places where no-one except a few other bass players (or Primus fans) really wanted to see it go.

I'm not saying that one has more merit than the other, I'm just explaining why I think that people eventually gravitate back to the simpler instruments, as you say - eventually I guess most people grow out of wanting to be Mr. Technique and just settle into playing music for the sake of music. I'm also a guitar player. I used to own Ibanezes with Floyds and all sorts of other fiddly stuff, but these days I play a Telecaster. I could introduce you to thirty of my friends who went though exactly the same thing.

[XB26354]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='470347' date='Apr 23 2009, 07:22 AM']Not really a model aimed at teens though, is it?[/quote]
Still a Fender shaped like a Jazz Bass.


[quote name='maxrossell' post='470347' date='Apr 23 2009, 07:22 AM']And once again, when you're dealing with teens, that tends to be true. The generalisations do have a foundation in reality. When I was growing up, the kids who had Fenders or aspired to Fenders played with picks, backed up rhythm lines and didnt really care that much about technique as long as the music rocked. The kids who had 5-strings or aspired to 5-strings, or six-strings, or active EQs or modern style basses, tended to overplay, to slap and pop all over the place, and generally to try to take their playing to places where no-one except a few other bass players (or Primus fans) really wanted to see it go.[/quote]

Every musician that ever learned to play something reasonably well overplays. It's a natural part of learning.
Acquiring taste or restraint comes with age and experience (usually) and has got nothing to do with which bit of wood you've got hanging round your neck. Who are these kids you talk about? I think these generalisations are in your head rather than in reality. It is also more due to general bias that if you don't have a Fender round your neck you're not a real musician. . There is always a place for Fender but they are not and never will be the only choice. My approach when other musicians comment on my choice of bass is to let my playing do the talking.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='470347' date='Apr 23 2009, 07:22 AM']I'm not saying that one has more merit than the other, I'm just explaining why I think that people eventually gravitate back to the simpler instruments, as you say - eventually I guess most people grow out of wanting to be Mr. Technique and just settle into playing music for the sake of music. I'm also a guitar player. I used to own Ibanezes with Floyds and all sorts of other fiddly stuff, but these days I play a Telecaster. I could introduce you to thirty of my friends who went though exactly the same thing.[/quote]

You seem to see this divide between musicality and technique which doesn't exist. I think you'd be surprised just how technically proficient a lot of the bass players you mention that endorse Fender actually are. As I said before, if someone is overplaying it's because they haven't learned enough, not because they've become Mr Technique. My technique is still improving after 25 years and it purely serves my ability to express myself, be that lplaying 1 note or 100.

What was the topic about again?
Oh yeah, +1 for the Ibanez Soundgear

[maxrossell]

[quote name='XB26354' post='470588' date='Apr 23 2009, 12:23 PM']Still a Fender shaped like a Jazz Bass.[/quote]

Indeed it is. I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not saying taht Fender are ONLY producing sigs aimed at teens.

[quote]Every musician that ever learned to play something reasonably well overplays. It's a natural part of learning.
Acquiring taste or restraint comes with age and experience (usually) and has got nothing to do with which bit of wood you've got hanging round your neck. Who are these kids you talk about? I think these generalisations are in your head rather than in reality. It is also more due to general bias that if you don't have a Fender round your neck you're not a real musician. . There is always a place for Fender but they are not and never will be the only choice. My approach when other musicians comment on my choice of bass is to let my playing do the talking.[/quote]

These kids I'm talking about are the ones I grew up with. They're real people, not just people I made up. I'm speaking from experience when I say that what I've noticed as I was growing up is that people who tend to favour a more technical approach to instrumentalism like more modern-styled basses with more complex options, and those who consider proficient technique to be of lesser value than other aspects of their musicianship tend to like more classic-styled basses with more straightforward options.

This isn't some far-fetched fantasy. You can see it with guitarists as well. The more techy ones tend to favour the light, superstratty fast players with Floyds and all that stuff. The less tech-oriented guys tend to like more old-school stuff. It's not a hard and fast rule, just a general trend.

[quote]You seem to see this divide between musicality and technique which doesn't exist. I think you'd be surprised just how technically proficient a lot of the bass players you mention that endorse Fender actually are. As I said before, if someone is overplaying it's because they haven't learned enough, not because they've become Mr Technique. My technique is still improving after 25 years and it purely serves my ability to express myself, be that lplaying 1 note or 100.[/quote]

You seem to be confusing what I've observed with what I believe. I personally don't see a divide between musicality and technique, however again there are trends where one group of people will tend to work hard on their technique more than their songwriting skills or whatever, and another group of people who do the opposite. They're not at extremes, there isn't a clear separation, just two different approaches. People sometimes stay where they are, people sometimes go from one approach to the other, and some people successfully marry the two.

[BigBeefChief]

Ahh, but don't forget XB26354 is the guy who, when talking about the difference between US and Mexican Fenders, famously said: "The MIA is for snobs that have to have Made in the USA on the headstock"

...so I'd take everything he says about Fenders with a large pinch of salt.

[XB26354]

Yeah and you're Mr reasoned argument on here aren't you? What was it you said in reply to the above - disabled or spastic? Great comeback. Having owned (to date) 12 Fenders, you can take your salt and shove it you annoying prat.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='XB26354' post='470636' date='Apr 23 2009, 12:56 PM']Yeah and you're Mr reasoned argument on here aren't you? What was it you said in reply to the above - disabled or spastic?[/quote]


Retarded if I remember correctly.

I called your position on this retarded. Nice to see you're consistent.


Annoying prat? Old school. I like your style.

[maxrossell]

Hey hey guys, guys, come on. It's only a forum.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='470655' date='Apr 23 2009, 01:06 PM']Hey hey guys, guys, come on. It's only a forum.[/quote]


Truth is, me and XB26354 are actually the same person!

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='XB26354' post='470192' date='Apr 22 2009, 11:25 PM']Fender didn't make a 5 (used by plenty of pros all over the world) until years after other manufacturers had thought of it, designed it and perfected it. .....This year Fender unveils their first ever 6-string - the Steve Bailey - perhaps one of the ugliest Fenders ever made.[/quote]

Sorry, but just in the pursuit of accuracy...

Fender Bass V - introduced 1965



Fender Bass VI - introduced 1961



Perhaps the ugliest Fenders ever made, particularly the 5, which looks like a CBS parts-bin special. But at least they were still innovating.

Edited April 23, 2009 by skankdelvar

[BigBeefChief]

Ho ho!

[XB26354]

Fender bass V - tuned EADGC. The 5-string as we know it today has a low B and Fender had nothing to do with it.
The Bass 6 was tuned an octave lower than a guitar to cater for Nashville Tic Tac - not intended to play bass at all. Again the standard 6-string as it is today is tuned BEADGC and was an initial idea between Carl Thompson and Anthony Jackson.
These have nothing whatsoever to do with what was developed later (and were both resounding flops). Just for accuracy...

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='XB26354' post='470740' date='Apr 23 2009, 02:08 PM']Fender bass V - tuned EADGC. The 5-string as we know it today has a low B and Fender had nothing to do with it.[/quote]


You said Fender didn't make a 5 for years, you said nothing about how it was tuned. If I tune my 4 string BEAD is it no longer a 4 string bass?

[neepheid]

So the Fender Bass V is not a 5 string bass because it

A) has 5 strings
B) is of an appropriate scale length
C) is in a valid tuning for a bass guitar

?

Me confused. It's not very good for dusty end players, I'll give you that.

Edited April 23, 2009 by neepheid

[XB26354]

Fender didn't make a [b]5-string bass tuned BEADG [/b]until long after other manufacturers. It was a massive flop and disappeared very quickly. Rickenbacker invented the electric guitar - but we think of Fender as the true origin. OK? Must remember to say exactly word for word - how silly of me to think that, like EADG for a 4-string, that BEADG is a standard for a 5.

Mystified what any of this has got to do with the OP so I'll bow out gracefully...

Wal - a definite non-American classic.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='XB26354' post='470740' date='Apr 23 2009, 02:08 PM']Fender bass V - tuned EADGC. The 5-string as we know it today has a low B and [b]Fender had nothing to do with it[/b].[/quote]

Apart from producing a 5 string bass (tuned EADGC).

[quote name='XB26354' post='470740' date='Apr 23 2009, 02:08 PM']The Bass 6 was tuned an octave lower than a guitar to cater for Nashville Tic Tac - not intended to play bass at all. Again the standard 6-string as it is today is tuned BEADGC and was an initial idea between Carl Thompson and Anthony Jackson.
[b]These have nothing whatsoever to do with what was developed later [/b](and were both resounding flops). Just for accuracy...[/quote]

Sure - no possibility whatsoever that a six string Bass VI might have any had any influence at all on the idea of a six string bass. And of course, nobody played bass lines on a Bass VI. Oh, apart from those damned annoying tic-tac basslines.

[i]Edit for:[/i]

Oh, he's gone.

As regards the OP, I'm all up for a Dallas Tuxedo bass.

Edited April 23, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='470687' date='Apr 23 2009, 12:28 PM']Sorry, but just in the pursuit of accuracy...

Fender Bass V - introduced 1965



Fender Bass VI - introduced 1961



Perhaps the ugliest Fenders ever made, particularly the 5, which looks like a CBS parts-bin special. But at least they were still innovating.[/quote]


I thought this was a baritone guitar, not a bass?

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='436826' date='Mar 17 2009, 01:20 AM']Hmm. OK let's try to distill that a bit:

Vigier - I've never seen an old Vigier, anybody got a snap of one? That's a new bass to me.
John Birch - Would like to see one. Looks like he just makes copies of American basses.
Gordon-Smith - I think their Les Paul models are modern classics and I love them, but I've never seen a GS bass - again, pics?
Chris Eccleshall - Another American copier?
Jaydee - Too modern.
Aria SB range - Bit plain, but the best suggestion yet.
Yamaha BB range - Agreed! [b]Not-American Classic[/b]
Ashley Pangborn - Look just like Jaydees or Alembics, no, not good enough.
Manson - Does he even make basses? Another boutique nobody - NO!
Wal - Agreed! [b]Not-American Classic[/b] if you can find an older one or the original body shape. MkII and later basses don't count!
Overwater - Too modern, too exclusive.
Hagstrom - Inspired by American designs but still with original features and still cool. I say [b]Not-American Classic[/b]. I've never played one though and they don't look too clever in the "giggable" category to me, but maybe that's just me.
Egmond - Best example I could find looked like a really cheap Fender knock-off. Pics?
Ned Callan - Would like to see some examples. All I'm finding is Shergold links.
Washburn - Can't think of a "classic" Washburn, I remember them for (admittedly good) budget guitars in the late '80s. Were they around before then?
Tune - Too modern.
Ibanez - Again, great suggestion, I declare the Musician a [b]Not-American Classic[/b], always tempted by them when they come up for sale.
Vantage - Would need to see classic examples, I thought they were a relatively modern brand.
Riverhead - Can only find '80s models. Did they do anything else?
Westone - I remember lots of people learning on Thunder models. OK then - [b]Not-American Classic[/b] - but ugly!
El Maya - Didn't they just do Fender copies?
Fernandes - Didn't they just do Fender copies?[/quote]

? Are you real?