Markbass CMD 102P 300/500W 2x10 Combo Amp vs Fender Rumble Stage 800 800W 2x10 Bass Combo Amp

[Al Krow]

For sure and I get that. But I just don't believe that a small cone can be designed to effectively match the low end frequency response of a large speaker cone, other things being equal.

I think there is a gradation involved here i.e. small (but definite) changes as you move from a 5" cone via a 6.5",  8", 10", 12," and 15" to an 18" cone. Each step may not be particularly noticeable, but if you put a 5" cone next to an 18" cone they will be different beasts in terms of freq response.

Be good to get someone more expert than me e.g. @Bill Fitzmaurice commenting with a bit more authority on the subject!

Edited July 26, 2018 by Al Krow

[Bridgehouse]

10 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

For sure and I get that. But I just don't believe that a small cone can be designed to effectively match the low end frequency response of a large speaker cone, other things being equal.

I think there is a gradation involved here i.e. small (but definite) changes as you move from a 5" cone via a 6.5",  8", 10", 12," and 15" to an 18" cone. Each step may not be particularly noticeable, but if you put a 5" cone next to an 18" cone they will be different beasts in terms of freq response.

Be good to get someone more expert than me e.g. @Bill Fitzmaurice commenting with a bit more authority on the subject!

How come my studio headphones produce some really jaw dropping bass with a 33mm driver then?

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

How come my studio headphones produce some really jaw dropping bass with a 33mm driver then?

Trying playing through those to an audience.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Al Krow

[Bridgehouse]

Just now, Al Krow said:

Trying playing through that to an audience.

But you said frequency response - not volume, range, distance or anything else. 

My headphones produce bass at 1cm from my ear that's as good as any 8x10 I've heard at 200m. Which means frequency response is irrelevant - it's about how much air movement a particular driver creates and how far certain frequencies travel in that movement. 

[discreet]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Aaaaaghh!!! Overhang OCD alert! Overhang OCD alert! *Runs away and washes hands 20,000 times*

[Al Krow]

17 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

But you said frequency response - not volume, range, distance or anything else. 

My headphones produce bass at 1cm from my ear that's as good as any 8x10 I've heard at 200m. Which means frequency response is irrelevant - it's about how much air movement a particular driver creates and how far certain frequencies travel in that movement. 

Ah ok, but...

It's the combination of frequency response with being able to get this across to an audience that I'm really focusing here on i.e. what cone size is going to be able to deliver the low end well (and I take the point about HPF'ing below 50Hz) to our audiences i.e. what makes sense for the gigging bassist.

I just don't think a 5" cone is going to realistically match a 15" speaker cone in delivering low end from bass to audience, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

[Bridgehouse]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Ah ok, but...

It's the combination of frequency response with being able to get this across to an audience that I'm really focusing here on i.e. what cone size is going to be able to deliver the low end well (and I take the point about HPF'ing below 50Hz) to our audiences i.e. what makes sense for the gigging bassist.

I just don't think a 5" cone is going to realistically match a 15" speaker cone in delivering low end from bass to audience, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

What do you mean by "well"? Do you mean accurately or faithfully, or do you mean efficiently?

I'd say the enclosure (or lack of) is just as important as the size of the drivers...

[songofthewind]

I have read people on Talkbass saying that the 115 Traveller works with the102p, hence my interest. I didn’t consider that EQ might be an issue, but now I am. I do like the sound of 10” speakers for sure.

 

 

[songofthewind]

I notice the Alain Caron combo sports different speaker sizes, what gives?

[songofthewind]

And I really do not like the look of overhanging cabs either (see above).

That is nearly as bad as poor string alignment on a bass!

[Al Krow]

34 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

What do you mean by "well"? Do you mean accurately or faithfully, or do you mean efficiently?

I'd say the enclosure (or lack of) is just as important as the size of the drivers...

I simply mean that will sound great to my audience and I won't feel like a wally on stage pretending otherwise, because some bright spark had said that small speaker cones are just as good as their significantly larger brethren at delivering a great bass sound 😂

For what it's worth my preferred cone size in order of preference is:

12"

10"

15"

anything else

Edited July 26, 2018 by Al Krow

[Bridgehouse]

@Al Krow As life ain't perfect - it will always be a compromise I guess.

I've played on stages so big that my 2x10 looks silly - and others where my QSCk10 has looked like someone put a house on it to block it off. 

Similarly, I've played gigs where the FOH system has been so good that I've been glad my monitor can't be heard out front, and others where we could have given each member of the audience a can and string to get a better feel for it..

Perhaps it's indicative of the fact my band seems to do more festivals than anything else - the stages tend to be bigger and the sound engineer/FOH a lot better organised. I played Y Not festival last year - in the bar tent during the downpours that washed it out (remember that?) It was heaving - you couldn't have fitted another fly in there - the FOH system was really really good - so good in fact that the house bass amp didn't get turned up - and it was an expensivo toob amp as well.

From your list, I see no reason at all for you not to use 12's. Either 2 1x12's or 1 2x12..?

[Al Krow]

Yes indeed on the need for compromises. For me a cab is a compromise between (i) sound / articulation / quality of components (ii) power handling and output, (iii) portability and (iv) cost.

Actually am I correct in remembering that we may share the same first choice cab i.e. a VK210 LNT?

A quality 212 or two 1x12s would be great, but my 210 does the job fine and, for me, is a very good "compromise".

My point above in the thread is simply that speaker size does make a difference and I disagree with folk who imply it's a non issue these days. In terms of quality of sound, articulation, efficiency, cost and power (when combined with everything else that goes into a speaker) there is good reason why 12" or 10" speaker cones seem to be the most widely adopted size by players and makers.

I suspect if there was a 2x5" speaker / driver / cabinet that could do what the best 112s can produce for a similar cost, but smaller and lighter, there would be a lot of takers. But there isn't one.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Al Krow

[Bridgehouse]

Yep - I have a 210LNT. And a barefaced compact which is on here for sale but I’m thinking of keeping it and getting a valve head and having that setup for recording.

I’m not saying I disagree re speaker sizes - just that the box it’s in and the quality of the components, wood etc can make a startling difference 

[Al Krow]

21 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

I’m not saying I disagree re speaker sizes - just that the box it’s in and the quality of the components, wood etc can make a startling difference 

You won't find any disagreement from me on that!  

And I'd go one step further and say that the speaker / cab is perhaps the single most important part of our signal chain, right up there with great PUPs and possibly even more important than the amp! 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Al Krow