Philverado Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I'm bowing to superior knowledge here, so here goes... I'm currently running Sansamp RBI into straight ahead 600w power amp (bridged) into Barefaced Supermidget. I'm currently not getting a sound I really like and although it sits well enough in the mix of my band (2 di'd acoustic guitars, full drum kit, 3 vocals) I'm looking to improve it. Essentially I'm running my bass guitar eqs (I've got flatwounds on all the basses) right in the middle. Pretty much the same on the Sansamp with the 'drive' all the way down. I'm on the edge of being loud enough but to get more volume I have to either notch up the eq on the Sansamp or on the basses themselves, but I then start to get an overdrive/distortion tone that I don't want. I really want just warm, rounded and louder. Don't get me wrong there's 'kin plenty of volume available when I up the eqs but I'm just not liking the sound. I'm essentially notching out a load of my output by keeping the eqs low. I played a shared backline gig a month or so back and played through a Markbass 115 combo and it was very nice.. So my question is if I invest in a decent output head (which may as well be a lightweight if I'm moving away from rackmount) do you reckon I can get what I'm after? I can afford a used LM3, LM800, Puma 500, Streamliner 600 (looking through current classifieds) or a new Peavey miniMax maybe, and I know it's all relative but I'd welcome thoughts/input. Cheers, Phil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 No idea where you are but you are welcome to try my PUMA 500 in Wigan, or I'm gigging at Ulverston (Lake District) Sat night. Good few threads on the amps you are considering so have a good search in this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Philverado' timestamp='1458255615' post='3006155'] I'm bowing to superior knowledge here, so here goes... I'm currently running Sansamp RBI into straight ahead 600w power amp (bridged) into Barefaced Supermidget. I'm currently not getting a sound I really like and although it sits well enough in the mix of my band (2 di'd acoustic guitars, full drum kit, 3 vocals) I'm looking to improve it. Essentially I'm running my bass guitar eqs (I've got flatwounds on all the basses) right in the middle. Pretty much the same on the Sansamp with the 'drive' all the way down. I'm on the edge of being loud enough but to get more volume I have to either notch up the eq on the Sansamp or on the basses themselves, but I then start to get an overdrive/distortion tone that I don't want. I really want just warm, rounded and louder. Don't get me wrong there's 'kin plenty of volume available when I up the eqs but I'm just not liking the sound. I'm essentially notching out a load of my output by keeping the eqs low. I played a shared backline gig a month or so back and played through a Markbass 115 combo and it was very nice.. So my question is if I invest in a decent output head (which may as well be a lightweight if I'm moving away from rackmount) do you reckon I can get what I'm after? I can afford a used LM3, LM800, Puma 500, Streamliner 600 (looking through current classifieds) or a new Peavey miniMax maybe, and I know it's all relative but I'd welcome thoughts/input. Cheers, Phil. [/quote] I think you have a signal level problem between the RBI and the power amp since your experience with the EQ indicates the amp still has plenty of headroom but the output from the RBI isnt high enough at this low gain setting to fully exploit the power amp. Presumably the bridged output can deliver a full 600w into 8ohm which should be more than ample if the signal level was high enough. I'm assuming you have the output gain on the RBI and any volume control on the power amp fully cranked ?. If you like the basic sound then you could try a sansamp BDDI into a puma (which can act as a very capably flat power amp with all settings at neutral). Edited March 18, 2016 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 The driven sound is coming from your pre stage. What happens if you increase the power amp volume only, or is it already maxed? If it's maxed, then I'm gonna agree with bassman7755. Have you tried changing the cables between the bass & amp (try changing one & then the other, then both). That's one thing you're gonna find hard to get in words... Told what's gonna sound good to your ears. All the amps you mentioned sound amazing to different people, you might even love the sound of all them if you get to try them all. Kind chaps whom posses one of the amps you're looking at & willing to let you try out, like Karlfer has are a great way to find out if it's what you're after. Or if there's a bass bash near you soon, then you can pop along & try each others gear. I liked the sound of my MB when I had it, but again, it might not be your sound. It didn't do dirt unless I added dirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 I use a Puma 300. It's a superb amp and as said works great as a power amp. I often use a Darkglass Vintage Microtubes Dlx into the FX return when I want Ampeg ish older rock tones. The head is only 2.2lb!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philverado Posted March 18, 2016 Author Share Posted March 18, 2016 Thanks to all of you for your replies, and cheers Karlfer for the offer to try your Puma. 👍 I'm unfortunately in Penzance so it's looking unlikely but thanks all the same. To answer the other questions, yep I have my power amp up on full chat and use the RBI master as a volume control, and signal path is fine, if I crank the bass eq up on the RBI it's terrifyingly loud (so cabling etc is good) but too dirty for what I'm after. I guess what I'm looking for is something that can do super clean, upright bass type sounds very loudly. If that makes sense?? Which is why I'm figuring on a reasonably high wattage head to counteract the fact that I'll naturally be killing some output by not cranking the pre-stage much and that I'm going into 8ohms. Cheers, Phil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 The forum above this one is entitled EUB and double basses. Try putting amp into the search box on the 1st page and see what comes up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Philverado' timestamp='1458342169' post='3006907'] To answer the other questions, yep I have my power amp up on full chat and use the RBI master as a volume control, and signal path is fine, if I crank the bass eq up on the RBI it's terrifyingly loud (so cabling etc is good) but too dirty for what I'm after. I guess what I'm looking for is something that can do super clean, upright bass type sounds very loudly. If that makes sense?? Which is why I'm figuring on a reasonably high wattage head to counteract the fact that I'll naturally be killing some output by not cranking the pre-stage much and that I'm going into 8ohms. Cheers, Phil. [/quote] You dont need more power, the fact that you achieve the volume you want by boosting low e.q clearly demonstrates that. When I say a signal [i]level[/i] problem I mean exactly that - not a signal integrity problem but a gain level mismatch between the pre and power amp. RBIs are known to have problems driving certain power amps with a hot enough signal. You dont say what setting your RBI master volume is on - I presume you've tried it fully cranked ?. If its still not loud enough then you could try running the RBI through a cheap mixer like [url="http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/SubZero-MIX02-1A-4-Channel-Mini-Mixer-by-Gear4music/SIZ"]this [/url]into the power amp to provide some signal boost. Maybe worth a punt at £30 if it might save you buying another amp. Edited March 19, 2016 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 [quote name='Philverado' timestamp='1458342169' post='3006907'] Thanks to all of you for your replies, and cheers Karlfer for the offer to try your Puma. 👍 I'm unfortunately in Penzance so it's looking unlikely but thanks all the same. To answer the other questions, yep I have my power amp up on full chat and use the RBI master as a volume control, and signal path is fine, if I crank the bass eq up on the RBI it's terrifyingly loud (so cabling etc is good) but too dirty for what I'm after. I guess what I'm looking for is something that can do super clean, upright bass type sounds very loudly. If that makes sense?? Which is why I'm figuring on a reasonably high wattage head to counteract the fact that I'll naturally be killing some output by not cranking the pre-stage much and that I'm going into 8ohms. Cheers, Phil. [/quote] Hi Phil, going off what you have said about having a clean and double bass like sound, I'd suggest a MarkBass head. They're simple and effective to use and can give a wide range of tones. I use a TTE 500 head and go in to a Barefaced big baby II cabs(will do when it arrives!) and I use a Mexican P bass fitted with TI flats, I do have a darkglass vintage microtubes pedal and that adds my grit should I need it, my amp and bass is MORE than warm enough and double bass like for my needs. I'd suggest checking out the MarkBass heads, they're clean, easy to use, lightweight, and give you a very unaltered tone, by that I mean they don't have much colour to the tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philverado Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1458374259' post='3006981'] You dont need more power, the fact that you achieve the volume you want by boosting low e.q clearly demonstrates that. When I say a signal [i]level[/i] problem I mean exactly that - not a signal integrity problem but a gain level mismatch between the pre and power amp. RBIs are known to have problems driving certain power amps with a hot enough signal. You dont say what setting your RBI master volume is on - I presume you've tried it fully cranked ?. If its still not loud enough then you could try running the RBI through a cheap mixer like [url="http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/SubZero-MIX02-1A-4-Channel-Mini-Mixer-by-Gear4music/SIZ"]this [/url]into the power amp to provide some signal boost. Maybe worth a punt at £30 if it might save you buying another amp. [/quote] Yep you are exactly right. It's not that I need more power I just need the signal converting into higher volume without getting dirty. As you say it may be worth trying routing out through a small mixer and back into power amp. I'll try that and see what goes down. Cheers, don't know why I didn't think of it 👍 Edited March 20, 2016 by Philverado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philverado Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 [quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1458380107' post='3007053'] Hi Phil, going off what you have said about having a clean and double bass like sound, I'd suggest a MarkBass head. They're simple and effective to use and can give a wide range of tones. I use a TTE 500 head and go in to a Barefaced big baby II cabs(will do when it arrives!) and I use a Mexican P bass fitted with TI flats, I do have a darkglass vintage microtubes pedal and that adds my grit should I need it, my amp and bass is MORE than warm enough and double bass like for my needs. I'd suggest checking out the MarkBass heads, they're clean, easy to use, lightweight, and give you a very unaltered tone, by that I mean they don't have much colour to the tone. [/quote] Thanks, the one I played through before sounded really nice - mellow but quite meaty - although I didn't get chance to tinker with it much at the time. I will be looking at all options in the coming month or so. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfoxnik Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1458374259' post='3006981'] You dont need more power, the fact that you achieve the volume you want by boosting low e.q clearly demonstrates that. When I say a signal [i]level[/i] problem I mean exactly that - not a signal integrity problem but a gain level mismatch between the pre and power amp. RBIs are known to have problems driving certain power amps with a hot enough signal. You don't say what setting your RBI master volume is on - I presume you've tried it fully cranked ?. If its still not loud enough then you could try running the RBI through a cheap mixer like [url="http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/SubZero-MIX02-1A-4-Channel-Mini-Mixer-by-Gear4music/SIZ"]this [/url]into the power amp to provide some signal boost. Maybe worth a punt at £30 if it might save you buying another amp. [/quote] Just a thought but, my experience of using relatively cheap mixers in the signal stage like this is that they can downgrade the quality of your tone, which is what happened when I tried a cheap 4 channel mixer a few years ago as a way of trying to balance the different output levels of my basses during gigs... In the end, it sucked out so much of the tone, I stopped using it and looked at different ways to achieve the same end result. Though it was more expensive, I bought a more high quality, true bypass pre-amp instead and used it to boost the bass with the lower output and it worked a treat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) [quote name='silverfoxnik' timestamp='1458557302' post='3008473'] Just a thought but, my experience of using relatively cheap mixers in the signal stage like this is that they can downgrade the quality of your tone, which is what happened when I tried a cheap 4 channel mixer a few years ago as a way of trying to balance the different output levels of my basses during gigs... In the end, it sucked out so much of the tone, I stopped using it [/quote] Cheap low end mixers don't generally have instrument compatible inputs - they tend to have mic and line level inputs. If you plug a guitar or bass directly into one of these you will get an impedance mismatch as your bass is designed to work driving a very high impedence input (around 1Megaohm) whereas mixer mic/line inputs are usually much lower impedence (600ohm to 10kiloohm). The result is likely to be muddy sound with no highs although you might get away with it with an active bass depending on the preamp design. You shouldn't get any such problem using any mixer with line level signals such as between a preamp and power amp. Even the cheap ones these days have barely measurable THD when used properly and I doubt anyone except maybe a really fussy pro studio engineer could tell if you had one in the signal path if its being used properly. Edited March 21, 2016 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfoxnik Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1458590006' post='3008942'] Cheap low end mixers don't generally have instrument compatible inputs - they tend to have mic and line level inputs. If you plug a guitar or bass directly into one of these you will get an impedance mismatch as your bass is designed to work driving a very high impedence input (around 1Megaohm) whereas mixer mic/line inputs are usually much lower impedence (600ohm to 10kiloohm). The result is likely to be muddy sound with no highs although you might get away with it with an active bass depending on the preamp design. You shouldn't get any such problem using any mixer with line level signals such as between a preamp and power amp. Even the cheap ones these days have barely measurable THD when used properly and I doubt anyone except maybe a really fussy pro studio engineer could tell if you had one in the signal path if its being used properly. [/quote] Thanks for such a detailed explanation.. I didn't know that at all when I tried that set up out, so that would explain why I got such a poor sound from it. Are things better now because technology has improved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 [quote name='Philverado' timestamp='1458255615' post='3006155'] I really want just warm, rounded and louder. [/quote] You need to try an Aguilar TH500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) [quote name='silverfoxnik' timestamp='1458602531' post='3009097'] Thanks for such a detailed explanation.. I didn't know that at all when I tried that set up out, so that would explain why I got such a poor sound from it. Are things better now because technology has improved? [/quote] Its not a technology problem - its down to the mixer design for the intended use, they simply arn't designed for direct guitar/bass connection I guess at least on the smaller models they figure that there arnt enough people wanting to do that to make it worth their while dedicating an input (or two) for it. Edited March 22, 2016 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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