The minefield that comes from being in a band

[Dingus]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1384376402' post='2276007']

Delusion is endemic in the music business.
[/quote]

No it isn't . I really am the illegitimate son of King of Belgium and [i] I [/i]wrote all the songs for the Beatles while Lennon and McCartney took all the credit . That is why they had me put in this hospital to make sure no one finds out .

[discreet]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1384377574' post='2276031']
No it isn't . I really am the illegitimate son of King of Belgium and [i] I [/i]wrote all the songs for the Beatles while Lennon and McCartney took all the credit . That is why they had me put in this hospital to make sure no one finds out .
[/quote]

So that was you..? I was there so that no-one would find out I wrote the entire works of Shakespeare. On the moon.

Edited November 13, 2013 by discreet

[Dingus]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1384379424' post='2276074']
So that was you..? I was there so that no-one would find out I wrote the entire works of Shakespeare. On the moon.
[/quote]

Cosmic.

[randythoades]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1384168175' post='2273374']
The unfortunate truth is that you might actually not be pushy and determined enough.
[/quote]

I too have been in a revolving door of various bands over the years, some cover bands, some originals. I have left and rejoined several bands too, thinking that the issues I had were gone, which of course they rarely were. I tend to avoid conflict and just quit at the first sign of a struggle or a direction that I am not comfortable with, rather than being stronger and forcing the discussion. On one occasion I quit the band because I couldn't cope with the attitude, sound and playing of the other guitarist, and once I had done that it encouraged the others (who also felt the same) to act and remove the other guitarist and invite me back, my ego suitably engorged! If I had been a bit more determined it would have been sorted without too much fuss.
Similarly when trying to do original bands around myself I have struggled to find or keep good players, so I started to learn piano and drums (failing at both to a great degree) but settling on programming drum machines and midi keyboard, singing and playing everything myself to get the sound and style I was after. Granted, it is difficult to play live, but I am not keen on gigging anyway, I like the challenge of crafting songs the I myself like, not for general consumption, and have been doing this now, on and off for about 10 years. No one hears them but me generally but I keep refining them and changing them and it keeps my creative side satisfied.
I have this dream that once I am dead and gone, someone will find my tapes and suddenly I will be a huge posthumous star!

[paul h]

What an awesome thread. Faith in basschat is partially restored

I have always struggled when joining an originals band that already has material written. As TimR says, it is pretty just like playing covers of songs you haven't heard before!

I still like the idea of playing original music but for me the real joy was always writing songs as a band with my best mates.

So maybe the answer is to get the right musicians together first and then work on new material?

[xilddx]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1384502765' post='2277348']
What an awesome thread. Faith in basschat is partially restored

[b]I have always struggled when joining an originals band that already has material written. As TimR says, it is pretty just like playing covers of songs you haven't heard before![/b]

I still like the idea of playing original music but for me the real joy was always writing songs as a band with my best mates.

So maybe the answer is to get the right musicians together first and then work on new material?
[/quote]

For me it's the opposite, I love helping someone realise their vision. Obviously I have to love their vision and how they execute it.

Contrarily, I want to write an album and put a band together to play it, but I don't want to be in the band. I want to be in the audience.

[paul h]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1384503143' post='2277350']


For me it's the opposite, I love helping someone realise their vision. Obviously I have to love their vision and how they execute it.

Contrarily, I want to write an album and put a band together to play it, but I don't want to be in the band. I want to be in the audience.
[/quote]

I think standard of musicianship comes into that as well. I believe you are a good enough musician to really contribute to someone else's vision.

Me...not so much I'm at my best being "me" and hoping that chemistry and luck create something special. I've never written a good song in my life but I have written some awesome riffs, middle eights and the odd hook

Edited November 15, 2013 by paul h

[xilddx]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1384503589' post='2277352']
I think standard of musicianship comes into that as well. I believe you are a good enough musician to really contribute to someone else's vision.

Me...not so much I'm at my best being "me" and hoping that chemistry and luck create something special. I've never written a good song in my life but I have written some awesome riffs, middle eights and the odd hook
[/quote]

Thanks Paul, that's kind. I know what you mean though.

[paul h]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1384503756' post='2277357']


Thanks Paul, that's kind. I know what you mean though.
[/quote]

You're welcome. It's fairly obvious to me though. I have the same respect for session musicians. The ability to "fit" into someone else's creative process is a difficult thing to pull off.

Ironically the majority of famous musicians would be terrible session players

Jimmy Page is great at being Jimmy Page. I somehow doubt he could pull off a supportive rhythm part on a Kelly Clarkson single

[BigRedX]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1384504299' post='2277366']
Jimmy Page is great at being Jimmy Page. I somehow doubt he could pull off a supportive rhythm part on a Kelly Clarkson single
[/quote]

Jimmy Page was making a very successful career as one of the in-demand session players before joining the Yardbirds.

[xilddx]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1384504650' post='2277367']


Jimmy Page was making a very successful career as one of the in-demand session players before joining the Yardbirds.
[/quote]I was going to say that too

[paul h]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1384504650' post='2277367']


Jimmy Page was making a very successful career as one of the in-demand session players before joining the Yardbirds.
[/quote]

Yes he was. In the 60's. Do you think he could play on a Kelly Clarkson song now, without just sounding like Jimmy Page playing on a Kelly Clarkson song?

I'm not convinced. And JP was just an offhand example

Edit: ok JP was a poor choice but I still think my point is valid.

Edited November 15, 2013 by paul h

[JamesBass]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1384502765' post='2277348']
What an awesome thread. Faith in basschat is partially restored

I have always struggled when joining an originals band that already has material written. As TimR says, it is pretty just like playing covers of songs you haven't heard before!

I still like the idea of playing original music but for me the real joy was always writing songs as a band with my best mates.

So maybe the answer is to get the right musicians together first and then work on new material?
[/quote]
I don't mind joining a pre-existing originals band and learning their already written and often, already gigged songs, I have no issues with that nor do I have issues of sessioning for the other people on my degree who have written say a Funk/Soul song I can do that happily, often they have the basic groove written out but nothing fancy and I'm expected to embellish it, I also get sessions with people who want root notes played all the way through the song as 8th notes, that's absolutely fine, so long as I have a band away from it all to go to and have a laugh with while still looking to work seriously on trying to make it our career.

I'm sure you could write a good song Paul, take a look at using your scales and modes and arps, use a 1,4,5 pattern if you're struggling! It might not turn out to be something you expected but just give it a go, I'm sure you'll surprise yourself!

[BigRedX]

IME there are broadly speaking two types of session player.

There are those who get the job because they are versatile, available and their fee fits within the recording/touring budget. To a large extent these people are pretty anonymous and that's what is required. They are there to play the parts that the producer/MD wants with as little fuss as possible.

And then there are those who have a "name". They're not necessarily versatile, but that's not why you hire them. You hire them because they play in a particular style and having them on your recording or in your touring band gives you kudos.

In his session-playing days in the 60s Jimmy Page was most definitely in the first category. The people who bought the records he played on neither knew nor cared that he was playing on them. He did the job that was required of him and get paid. End of story.

These days he is most definitely in the second category. There is no point in hiring Jimmy Page if you're not going to let him play like Jimmy Page. If you just want a guitarist there's hundreds of musicians who will do that job just as well and most of them will charge considerably less. And while IMO Jimmy Page would be perfectly capable of playing the guitar part to a Kelly Clarkson song and playing something appropriate, there would be little point for either him to do that or for Kelly Clarkson's producer to hire him to be anything other than Jimmy Page.

[paul h]

^^^ That was my point.

[TimR]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1384503143' post='2277350']


For me it's the opposite, I love helping someone realise their vision. Obviously I have to love their vision and how they execute it.

Contrarily, I want to write an album and put a band together to play it, but I don't want to be in the band. I want to be in the audience.
[/quote]

That's not the opposite. That's the same. Unless I'm mistaken.

If we join a band that has the material written you are just playing an unknown cover. However, we've probably all been in different bands with different ideas of how covers should be played. If the band leader wants everyone to play exactly as the original recording you end up with the 'musos' leaving... If the band leader wants to make it you own (god I hate that term) then the musos have a great time and the perfectionists leave.

The key is getting the balance right and that depends on the individuals in the band.

Writing bass lines is one thing, asking the songwriter to alter the cord structure in the middle 8 and the rhythm in the chorus to give the song life is different. That's where I've had clashes with headstrong song writers who've slaved away in isolation on their 'baby'.

I've also been involved in projects where the songwriter has presented his 'finished' song to us, we've played it perfectly first time, recorded it, all gone away and listened and learned it properly, only for him to turn up next week and change something. I don't mind that happening a few times but it gets wearing when you've worked on the same 'finished' song for two months and he is still making changes for it to be perfect before you can gig it.