Recording my DB

[sebpalmer]

Newbie: hello / recording my Antoni DB

Hello

I just joined basschat.co.uk, and after posting an initial message in the 'introductions' section of the forum was directed here.

I'm primarily a drummer. But I've always loved double-bass, and, having played guitar and bass since my teens, I finally acquired a 1/2 size Antoni upright, via a bassist/sax player I was playing with at the time. I paid £150 for the instrument, which, I've subsequently learned, was probably a pretty good deal. Cosmetically the bass is pretty good, save for a rather ugly looking loss of colour on the neck, rather strangely located at the high end, near (but not under) the low E string. Also, under the strings at the bottom end of the neck - where I play it most - the paint/laquer (or whatever they use to make the neck black) is wearing away in grooves.

I wasn't given a bow when I bought the bass, and I only play in a jazz/folk finger style. I play the bass for pure pleasure, almost solely at home, and largely on my own. This mostly comprises either just plain playing with myself (fnnnaaarrr, chuckle, etc.), jamming along to favourite tunes, or - and this is why I'm posting - recording bass parts on my home recordings. I've only recorded about 5-6 pieces using the bass since I bought it. But I'm starting to use it more and more frequently. Currently I'm recording a version of John Martyn's Solid Air with it.

The issue I'm finally confronting is this: as limited as my own abilities may be, I'm enjoying the performance side of what I'm accomplishing. But I'm far from satisfied with the sound. Isolated, the bass tracks sound pretty nice to me. But 'in the mix' they seem to lose any rich bottom end and sustain. I've been experimenting with compression, EQ, and even some bass-enhancing plug-ins, all of which help improve the sound to some extent.

But I reckon the key issue is that I don't have a pick up: I record with a C-1000 pointed at the fingerboard, and an AT-4033a pointed towards the bridge/f-holes. I've recorded other double basses before, which had pick ups, and it seems to me the real 'body' of the sound - the fat, rich, low-end, and the beef of the sustain, came via the pick-ups. Whereas the mic on the neck would provide the air and some of the fingerstyle timbres that I love so much.

So, I'm looking to buy an affordable double bass pick-up. I can see they range from the Shadow, around £35/40, via the K&K models, to things like the Realist (which seems to be around £150/160) and the various and even pricier Accusound models. Given what i paid for the bass, the Realist and Accusounds seem too pricey to me. But on the other hand, I don't want to waste money on something cheap an nasty. Looking on Thomann I see that they have the following prices (all approx):

Shadow SH-SB2 - £35
K&K Big Twin - £50
K&K Double Big Twin - £90
K&K Bass Max - £100
Realist (copper) - £160

There are of course others, Fishman, Up- (or is it Under-)woods… the mind boggles!

Listening to clips on Youtube is confusing. One of the best videos I saw during my researches was John Patittuci on the realist SoundClip:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNQclaAmyX8[/media]

... where he's talking about exactly what I want to achieve - a natural (but full) sound - , albeit he's talking about achieving this with an amp, and I'm after attaining the same goal, but in a recording scenario, using one mic on the neck and a DI from the pickup into my MOTU 828 into Logic.

I read that the K&K Bass Max model might involve some alteration to the bridge to make it fit, which kind of puts me off. Budget wise I lean towards the Big Twin. But, after listening to various comparisons, etc., on YouTube I'm just very, very confused.

Can you guys help? Cheers

Seb

Edited October 15, 2013 by sebpalmer

[ubassman]

Not my area of expertise but I am sure that there will be plenty of DB players who will chip in with thoughts and experience as players . It may be that you also ask the same question in the Recording forum and you may get good comparisons with those who record regularly or do it professionally. Good luck with it and welcome to the DB and EUB forum - we are usually quiet a friendly and civil bunch in here ! ...usually!

[alistair Sutcliffe]

I got great results with a cheap omnidirectional clip-on lapel mic pointed into the treble f-hole. There's a big thread on Talkbass about them. It's useless live because it feeds back at too low a volume but it gave an amazing sound for recording. Only cost about £15 from Maplins.

[Bilbo]

I use a K&K Sound Double Big Twin pick up through a Fishman Plat Pro, an AI Clarus and Ten 2Ex cab. The sound works for me and, recording, I try everything; mic, pick-up with pre-amp, with amp. di etc and the one thing I have learned is that all the kit in the world won't make your bass sound like it doesn't!! An Antoni 1/2 size isn't EVER going to sound like John Patitucci's Thomas Martin bass or Charlie Haden's Vuillaume. If you are not cutting through the mix, it may be that the sound you have is not as rich as it needs to be? Try another mic a little further away from the bass to put some 'air' in your sound. With a DI, close mic and ambient mic, you will get what you are playing. If that doesn't work go back to the sound itself.

[mtroun]

I would try a mic with a wider frequency response. A pickup is really designed to get the easiest to amplify representation of the bass's sound.

[51m0n]

You dont need a pickup to record a DB.

In fact its the last thing you want to reach for.

You need the following:-

1. A good sounding bass played well - cant emphasise this enough, a DB's sound is [i]all[/i] about the player's ability to get it to project, its a physical beastie, and a great player will get a huge tone from an instrument they know, a lesser player will really struggle with the same instrument!

2. A great sounding room - you arent just micing the bass if you are doing it properly, you are micing the way the bass interacts with the room.

If you move the mc further from the bass you pick up a sound that is of more of the entire instrument rather than one point source on the instrument. Too close and you are close micing the instrumetn and the mic will only pick up the pat of the sound eminating from the closest part of the instrument, it will sound very artificial indeed

If you move the mic too far away you get too much room mixed in. If you go further away you get so much room that you can no longer hear a significant amount o fthe direct sound from the instrumetn. This is known as [i]critical distance[/i], in a smallish room (a living room) the critical distance can be a lot closer than you think. A Cardiod mic should be no further than 1/2 the critical distance from the instrumetn at the absolute most. An omni mic should be no further than one third of the critical distance at most.

Remember critical distance applies to all boundaries, so that includes the ceiling and the floor!!

3. No mic phase issues - You are using two mics, it is highly likely that you are losing bass as they are out of phase with each other. A quick test of this is to turn off the playback of each mic in turn and bring the level up to m,atch the level of both of them, if on their own they have more bass than when they are a pair then you have phase issues.

The solving of this all relies on you playing whilst someone else moves mics to find the very best place in the room to capture your instrument. its not a difficult thing to do if you know how, I like to literally walk around the instrument with one ear covered and the other facing the bass, listening for the best mix of timbre, direct sound and room to give the greatest impact. I the put a mic there, right where my ear is, pointing at the instrument. Sometimes you have to tweak it a little from there still, but most often thats pretty much bang on!

If on playback that mic is lacking something then I may rarely put another mic up, but in that case I tend to spot mic the part of the instrumetn which gives that par tof the sound that is missing and I am very careful to check phase, and filter out all but the 'missing' area and then mix that with the main mic as little as I can possibly get away with.

Recorded well you should not need to reach for more than a touch of eq and compression in the mix IME. The AT4033a you have would certainly cover all the basses for a main mic on a cheap acoustic bass for me. I would defintely look at spending far more time on its positioning, and your playing technique to be honest. If you have to buy something then get a new really good set of strings (Thomastic Spirocores sound fantastic on my son's DB, really punchy and bold in a Big Band), they cost more than your bass, but are definitely worth it!

As an aside in a really fantastic sounding room for something a little more classical I often like to use a stereo pair in the place of the single main mic so as to get a better sense of the space. In the mix I probably wouldnt spread them full width, but just having that option can really open up the 'reality' of the instrument.

Edited October 14, 2013 by 51m0n

[fatback]

Terrific guide. This really should be a sticky somewhere.

[ShergoldSnickers]

Need to do more tinkering with my mics. Tried a Rode NT4 stereo and a CAD m179 (that's my lot, no more mics) and the CAD has the edge so far, but I've by no means exhausted the positioning possibilities. Interestingly, whilst I can adjust the pattern on the CAD between hypercardioid and omni, a wider pattern seems to work best, one that allows some room sound in that isn't too mucked up off-axis.

[geoffbassist]

I'm using a Heil Pr40 for my lessons and it makes a big difference how you position it. I don't think I have I'm using it to it's full potential yet as I'm pretty new to the recording with my own equipment.

[51m0n]

Heil PR40 is a hell of a mic for bass, should be possible to capture a fantastic sound with one.

There are some cracking mics from DPA and Schoeps that are also fab, but cost the earth, on the other hand I would heartily recommend the tiny Line Audio CM-3 as a close second for a silly cheap price (comparatively)....

[sebpalmer]

Hi fellas,

And many thanks for all the responses.

The first thing I ought to say is that my cheap beginners bass is probably about matched to my abilities: it's not a beautiful instrument, and I can't play it very well! By way of comparison, my primary drum kit - and the one I usually record with - has a value well in excess of 20 x that of this bass. And I know where the money went; it's a beauty, and sounds at least as good, nay, better even, than it looks. If bass was my primary instrument I'd doubtless invest the equivalent (in the fullness of time, I'll certainly want a better instrument, but for now I'll have to make do with what I've got!).

And 'Bilbo', I realise I'm not going to sound like Pattituci …on any bass! The reason for including that clip was, a ) it's fun to watch a master at work, and b ) the principle he's demonstrating is, in essence, the same as my aim: he's seeking to emulate the acoustic sound, via an amp, whilst I'm seeking to transfer my (admittedly poxy) acoustic sound into the digital domain. I feel that somewhere along the chain of my recording process I'm effectively losing some of the fullness of the instruments sound.

To 51m0n I'd have to say - as well as thanks for a very detailed and interesting response, which I will most certainly be acting upon*, and with the caveat that in addition to not really being a bassist, I'm hardly a seasoned recording engineer either (plus my recording room is a tiny little box!) - that, having recorded several bassists (in addition to my 'umble self), some with pick-ups, and some without, it's always been the case that the sessions where there was a pick-up channel (I've always also used a mic as well, for the air in the room and the fingerboard sounds) have resulted in a fuller, phatter bottom end, with more audible sustain. So, as well as practising like a proper b*stard, and experimenting with mic positions, etc., I'll definitely be trying out some form of pick-up.

Alistair and Bilbo, thanks for your pick-up tips. I might visit to Maplin, or perhaps I'll be braver and splash out on the K&K Dbl Big Twin. Hmmm!? Either way, thanks, it gives me some options to think about.

* Simon, I checked a couple of my recent 'bull fiddle' recordings, re mic phase problems: I definitely have much more bass when the two channels are playing simultaneously, so I don't think I'm losing anything. Does that mean, therefore, that my mics are okay phase-wise?

I'll be checking back of course, to see how this thread is developing and if anyone else has chipped in.
Thanks again,

Regards

Seb

BTW Bilbo, are you not the same Rob Palmer as wot writ a book on Paul Chambers, and I played with ages ago on Myke Clifford's Jimmy Smith night in Bury? Oh, and you depped with Capricorn… didn't'cha!

Edited October 14, 2013 by sebpalmer

[sebpalmer]

That smiley was supposed to be letter 'b' & a bracket!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='sebpalmer' timestamp='1381779255' post='2243712']
That smiley was supposed to be letter 'b' & a bracket!
[/quote]

Works if you leave a space between 'em... b ). The smiley is more 'fun', though...

[sebpalmer]

Murky buckets, mon-sewer I've changed it now. Smileys? Fun!? 'Bar, handbag!' as ol' Eb' Stooge might've said

Edited October 14, 2013 by sebpalmer

[Dad3353]

[URL=http://www.smileyvault.com/][IMG]http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/CBSA/smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-animated-041.gif[/IMG][/URL]

[thisnameistaken]

I don't mean to sound patronising but are you sure you're not aiming for more of an electric bass sound? Bottom end and sustain aren't what I'd call prominent characteristics of the upright. Well, you'll get some bass from the lower octave, but it will decay quite quickly.

[blinddrew]

There's always what you might call the cheating option. I've had some quite good results by taking a duplicate of the bass track, compressing the hell out of it, pitch-shifting it down an octave and then rolling off anything above the middle frequencies, then mixing a little bit of this low end back into the main bass track.

[sebpalmer]

Hi guys,

Thanks for these further replies.

@ blinddrew: thanks for the suggestion. It's similar to the 'fix it in the mix' stuff I'm already tinkering with. But the bottom line for me is that I want to capture a better, fuller sound to start with, and then treat it as little as possible. But I might give it a try, and thanks for the suggestion.

@ thisnameistaken: hey man, don't worry… not offended in the least. But it [i]does[/i] sound a tad patronising! I have an electric bass, and I use that when I want that kind of sound.

I know and love the sound of double bass, having fallen in love with the 'bull fiddle' way back in my childhood, aged 7 or 8. I can even recall the albums that got me hooked: David Grisman's 'Hot Dawg', and Ry Cooder's 'Jazz', which even features occasional tuba in place of string bass.

It's not only the sounds of such bassists as Jim Hughart with Tom Waits, or Ron Carter with everyone from Miles to Alice Coltrane, that inform my choices, but even the bass parts I've [i]already recorded myself[/i], with other basses/bassists. The key difference when I listen to the latter, which sound just peachy to me, is that they all had pickups.

When I listen to those recordings, and solo the two double bass tracks - one is a mic on the neck, the other the DI - the neck mic' has some bass, but it's the finger sounds and the air in the room that this channel crucially captures, for me, whilst the DI/pickup channel has what I call the 'beef' or 'body'.

The quickest solution to my need for decent double bass parts on the tracks I'm recording would be to hire a good bassist, and I know plenty. But I love the bass, so much so I bought one, even it is a cheap one, and I want to learn to play it better myself… plus I'm an out of control megalomaniac control freak!

Really what I'm after in posting here is advice on the best pick-up on a tight budget!

But thanks for all the input, whatever it may be. 'Tis much appreciated.
Cheers

Seb