Ebay and distance selling

[Stacker]

Let's say you buy something from the Eurozone via ebay and it's not what you thought it was, or that the description wasn't precise. You now want to send this back and notice that the seller will only refund you the basic cost of the item, charging you both for initial shipping and return shipping. Discuss.

[skej21]

[quote name='Stacker' timestamp='1360649643' post='1973911']
Let's say you buy something from the Eurozone via ebay and it's not what you thought it was, or that the description wasn't precise. You now want to send this back and notice that the seller will only refund you the basic cost of the item, charging you both for initial shipping and return shipping. Discuss.
[/quote]

With distance selling you have a short period in which to return the item if it is it unsatisfactory. As for shipping, you paid to have the item shipped and it arrived safely. Why should you be refunded for a service that you HAVE used and had no problem with? Also, most refunds are given on a 'return-to-dealer' basis and therefore it is your responsibility to get the item back it you want your refund and as a result, most companies/individuals will make sure you will be responsible for the costs incurred.

Whilst you may feel this is harsh, the seller has probably paid out for PayPal fees and sellers fees for the sale of the item and won't want to pay more to refund your shipping both ways too.

I'm not saying I agree with that but I can see why it would happen and unfortunately for you, (unless I've missed it) ebay doesn't require the seller to refund postage costs.

Edited February 12, 2013 by skej21

[Stacker]

Don't have a problem with the initial postage but paying for a return? Why, when they witheld - maybe accidentally - details of the item that, had these been state on the auction page, would have steered me away from buying it. Sure, I should have checked the returns policy first. Bit of a quandary, cos if I do return it I'll be a minimum of £50 down with nothing to show for it.

[iconic]

I believe that DSR's (distance selling regs) only apply to UK sourced 'buy-it-now' items.....maybe Citizens advice could confirm/clarify/help.

[i]The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 generally apply to sales to consumers made by sellers acting in the course of a business, which have been made at a distance. In other words, where there's no face-to-face contact between the seller and the consumer before the contract is made. The Distance Selling Regulations apply to items purchased via Buy It Now listings and Second Chance Offers on eBay.co.uk. However, they don't apply to auction-style listings on eBay.co.uk. [/i]
[i]These regulations provide a period of 7 working days after the date of receipt within which the consumer can cancel the contract (often referred to as the "cooling off" period) and get their money back, including the original postage and packing charges. The consumer may be asked to return the goods at their own expense, but only if the seller informed them of this requirement before the contract was made (otherwise, the seller is responsible for collecting the goods).[/i]
[i]This right of cancellation does not apply to:[/i][list]
[*]

[i][b]Custom made goods[/b] - Goods which are tailored to your own specifications (such as custom-made wedding gown). [/i]
[*]

[i][b]Goods that by reason of their nature cannot be returned[/b] – This covers medication for example.[/i]
[*]

[i][b]Perishable goods[/b] - like fresh foods or flowers. [/i]
[*]

[i][b]Sealed items, which have been unsealed[/b] - audio or video recordings or computer software that you have unsealed. [/i]
[*]

[i][b]Newspapers, periodicals or magazines[/b][/i]
[*]

[i][b]Accommodation, transport, catering or leisure services [/b]- where the seller has agreed to supply the service on a set date or within a set time period (for example hotel accommodation; plane, train, or concert tickets; car hire; tickets to sporting events). [/i]
[/list]
[i] The regulations above only apply to a business seller – consumer buyer transactions. However, even a consumer seller is required to ensure that correctly describe the item. [/i]

[oggiesnr]

If it's a really gross distortion then raise it via Ebay and possibly dispute it through Paypal, tends to concentrate minds. However descriptions which are accurate but maybe not 100% complete are a risk you take with on-line purchases, been caught like that myself and marked it down to experience.

Given the growing propensity of distance buyers to return stuff (I saw a figure of 20% quoted by one company recently) I can see why the seller would say it's at the buyers cost (I do it myself when I sell).

Steve

[Floyd]

There's a guide here http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

It only applies to business sellers not private sales. The Distance Selling Regulations are EU law and apply to all EU member states. If goods are supplied faulty or do not comply with the contract, eg if they were wrongly described. The seller is obliged by law to refund the full cost of the goods and postal charges for both the supply and return of the goods. Even if the goods are not faulty you have 7 working days after receiving the goods to change your mind and send them back. In this case the seller should refund you for the full cost of the goods and the delivery postage. You must send them back at your own cost. In the first case if the goods are faulty, by law, all you are required to do is make the goods available for collection. The seller also can't charge you restocking fees or any other charge he might invent. That's the law. In practice it's different. On Ebay you can't get a refund until you've sent it back and then when you have the seller ignores your request for the return postage. You open an eBay dispute and it's closed in the sellers favour because he's given you a refund but not for the return postage. Ebay do nothing, it's like talking to a bunch of monkeys. The DTI do nothing as they won't get involved in individual cases. But...... There is a complaints form on the Citizens Advice website where you can report businesses for not complying with the law. I am not a lawyer. How do I know all this ? I'm trying to get my 50 quid back off a dodgy seller for returning faulty goods.

[oggiesnr]

Section 2:2 of the above - Exceptions to the DSRs -

"auction sales, including online and interactive TV auctions.
They do apply to some activities described as auctions
depending on exactly when and how the sale occurs."

Also if the seller states in their conditions that returns are at the customer's expense then that is the agreement you have made on purchase and you have to pay those costs (Page 10)

Steve

[Stacker]

It's getting better. Told them of the discrepancy in the description and they now want me to ship item to a customer of theirs in the 'States!! When HE receives it, then they'll refund me plus my (return?) shipping.

For clairifcation, this item was a BIN via a business seller.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Stacker

[jackers]

now that I would contact eBay/paypal about. sounds very dodgy to me.

[Floyd]

Distance Selling Regulations apply to BIN cos it's not an auction. You can also find more of this on the Money Saving Expert website. I've had a business seller tell me that he follows ebays rules and that's all he has to do. So shop on ebay and follow their rules and you can just ignore the law? That's rich.

[Floyd]

Just had a quick look. This is taken from eBay's guide on distance selling regulations, "[color=#000000][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]DSR's do not apply to real world auctions however, trading standards and the DTI do NOT class eBay as auctions regardless of it being called an online auction. Therefore if you are a business you are liable to abide by DSR's and ensure you are running your business legally. Visit the eBay for [/size][/font][/color][url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/business.html"]business[/url][color=#000000][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3] guide"[/size][/font][/color]

[fretmeister]

The DSR also says that the buyer paying the postage return fees must be in a DURABLE MEDIUM.

Therefore it is NOT enough to simply put that on the website, as a website is not a durable medium as it can be changed at a whim

So it needs to be in (at least) and email to you. If it's not, then they can't charge the return postage.

[Stacker]

They're not charging it! :-)

[Floyd]

This also from the Distance selling regulations, " If the goods are faulty or do not comply with the
contract, you will have to pay for their return whatever the
circumstances." This is talking about the seller.

Also don't forget that any eBay rules or sellers conditions never replace or negate the law. They can add to your lawful rights but not lessen them.

I've been advised to go to a small claims court to get my postage back. These people either don't understand the law or ignore it believing that no one will bother taking them to court.

[icastle]

[quote name='Floyd' timestamp='1360672764' post='1974257']
I've been advised to go to a small claims court to get my postage back. These people either don't understand the law or ignore it believing that no one will bother taking them to court.
[/quote]

As harsh as this may sound, you need to look at the likelihood of success before going through the Small Claims process.

It's going to cost £25 to get a case heard.

If the retailer is based abroad, they're not going to turn up to the hearing, so you'll definitely 'win'.
However, because of the small amounts involved, you have no way of enforcing that 'win'.
You're now an extra £25 out of pocket.

If the retailer is based in the UK, they may or may not turn up to the hearing and you may or may not win.
If they win, then you pay their costs on top of the £25 you paid to get the case heard.
If you win, because of the small amounts involved, you have no way of enforcing that 'win'.
You're now an extra £25 out of pocket.

On balance, if it was me I'd just have to chalk it up to experience and move on.

[Grangur]

Here's a real-life case:
I had a problem with a bass bought on ebay - it had a significant ding on the front of the bass that the seller didn't mention in the description. He'd said "great condition".

I complained to the seller saying I wanted to return it, or I'd accept a part refund to cover the loss in value. He was insulting in the reply, so I took it to ebay's "resolution centre".

Ebay returned my money from his paypal account in full. I got the bass for free.

After this I then went on and set the bass up, polished it over and rephotographed it and sold the bass for the same as the full price I got it for, but with declaring the ding honestly. So I recon I did ok

[warwickhunt]

I've personal experience of buying on ebay and items being 'not as described' which ebay have found in my favour, however... according to ebay/paypal I have had to return the item to the seller 'at my cost' in order to receive a refund of the purchase price + shipping. In the end the seller lost the cost of shipping the item to me and I lost in having to return a misdescribed item; you quickly learn to ask very probing questions BEFORE you buy!

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1360702748' post='1975153']
Ebay returned my money from his paypal account in full. I got the bass for free.
[/quote]

This can and does happen IF the seller refuses to respond to communications from ebay/paypal. Burying one's head in the sand doesn't work as a defence.

[Floyd]

I've never going to take the b@stard to court and that'll be what he's banking on. I don't think I'll see my 50 quid again but I'm going to keep hassling him. Having spoken to the DTI and the Citizens Advice Bureau, I'm a bit surprised that nobody's got the power to call on rogue traders to have a chat about how they operate.
I'll move on from this soon. I've got my first gig with a new band in 4 weeks so a busy year ahead learning their stuff.