walking basslines and modes over chords, making sense but a question?

[iconic]

A sort of light bulb moment came on today, it's not dazzling but a sort of a dull glow....I need someone to turn the wick up for me and answer a couple of questions to see if I really understand what I think I understand: I need to outline the following first....

1st off, I wish I'd started noodling lines with walking basslines when I first started playing around with these bass's, it's starting to make a lot more sense now, little nuggets of theory make more sense.

I've been sitting here this afternoon playing a bit of Frank Sinatra, Fly Me to The Moon in A minor (C major) and this has got to be for me, one of the best and clever walking basslines I've come across thus far, because of the lack of 'off key' leading notes only the use of the occasional Gb, Bb and Ab to join things up.

I've also realised, well I sort of knew, that the modes have equivilent chords over a key, or you could say, what mode to play over which type of chord that occur in a harmonised key;

chord is major, play ionion over it
chord is minor play aeolian over it
chord is diminished play locrian over it
chord is M7 (dominant) play mixolydian over it
chord is major 7th play ionian over it

[b]But after the above my 'theory' of modes over chords seems to run into a brick wall, if there is more?[/b]

[b]Q/ So after all this, if you are still with me, are there common chords that interact well with the remaining modes of phrygian, dorian, lydian? Are there any other rules of thumb, no pun intended [/b]

[b]Q/ What mode would one play over a sus chord (sus4) for example, it's not major or minor as it's 3rd is sharp?[/b]

[b]Q/ What mode would one play over an aug chord (augmented 5th) ....I would play lydian over a diminished as I said before.[/b]

[b]Or maybe I'm adding 2 and 2 and making 5?[/b]

[b]any help, advice most welcome[/b]

[b]thanks in advance [/b]

[BassBus]

I'm afraid I can't answer questions about modes and what I say I'm sure will will be roundly knocked by those with a greater theoretical knowledge than me.

I think sometimes too much knowledge of what mode to play with what chord can loose sight of the warmth that actualiy lends more to the music you play. There are not many notes in the scale that will not fit whatever chord you play under. By all means learn the theory but use your ears as well. They will allow you to play a much better line and you won't have to think so much.

There are plenty of backing tracks available on youtube to practice with. Just try playing by ear and find out which notes work for you and which don't. The swing you play with is far more important for me than the theory.

[Doddy]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1356106033' post='1906973']
[b]But after the above my 'theory' of modes over chords seems to run into a brick wall, if there is more?[/b]

[b]Q/ So after all this, if you are still with me, are there common chords that interact well with the remaining modes of phrygian, dorian, lydian? Are there any other rules of thumb, no pun intended [/b]

[b]Q/ What mode would one play over a sus chord (sus4) for example, it's not major or minor as it's 3rd is sharp?[/b]

[b]Q/ What mode would one play over an aug chord (augmented 5th) ....I would play lydian over a diminished as I said before.[/b]

[/quote]

1...Try these for starters-Phrygian will generally work over a minor chord (it's minor with a b2).Dorian can also be played over
a minor chord,it's just a minor scale with a natural 6(I use this more than Aeolian).Lydian can work over a major chord because
it's major with a #4. Locrian works over half diminished (m7b5) rather than diminished (which has a bb7)

2...A sus4 chord doesn't have a #3-it has the 4 in place of the 3,so the triad would be 1,4,5. They are usually used in
place of a major chord.

3...Over an augmented chord I'd be looking at something like the lydian augmented which has both a #4 and #5.
I wouldn't play lydian over a diminished chord though.Lydian is a major scale with a #4-whereas a diminished chord
has a b3,b5,bb7. It might be worth having a look at the diminished scale instead.

Personally for a lot of walking lines,I think that having a strong knowledge of chord tones is generally more important
than relating them to the modes.

[iconic]

many thanks Doddy

[Bilbo]

It is important to note that the mode to use over a chord is determined not only by the chord you are playing but by the one that precedes it and, most importantly, the one that follows it. So a minor chord can be aeolian, phrygian or dorian (probably the most common as it is the mode that stabilises the II in a II, V, I sequence.

The modes of a major scale are important of course but, increasingly, jazz tunes contain modes of the melodic minor (Major scale with a flattened third) and this single npte change causes beautiful chaos. You also need to understand the role of slash chords, augmented etc. Al lot of the decisions about the note choices in walking lines are about the intentions of the composer so a sus4 chord in a head may be less important when soloing that when playing the head but that's a aesthetic decison.

But you perspectives are generally there, iconic. Keep working at it and it will alll start to make sense.

[GonzoBass]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1356106033' post='1906973']
I've been sitting here this afternoon playing a bit of Frank Sinatra, Fly Me to The Moon in A minor (C major) and this has got to be for me, one of the best and clever walking basslines I've come across thus far...[/quote]

Have you checkd out The Major's Bass Boot Camp - Session 16
(particularly 16a and 16b)?

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/78653-the-majors-bass-boot-camp-session-16/"]http://basschat.co.u...amp-session-16/[/url]



...with thanks again to The Major.

[Lord Sausage]

Is this how a lot of people approach it? Constant thinking thru modes etc on every change? Just wondering.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1356196347' post='1907879']
Is this how a lot of people approach it? Constant thinking thru modes etc on every change? Just wondering.
[/quote]

I don't. I generally think about the chords when I'm walking. More accurately,I've spent a lot of time
studying and practicing chord tones that I'm don't have to think about them when I'm on the bandstand.

[BassBus]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1356226630' post='1908241']
I don't. I generally think about the chords when I'm walking.
[/quote]

This was my point. It involves a lot of thinking time if you have to decide what mode you use if chords change once or twice in every bar. On a tune like So What there are only really two chords in the whole thing. To keep things interesting then, yes, use the modes. There is plenty of time to think about what you are going to do. Otherwise, as Doddy says, work with chord tones.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1356226630' post='1908241']
I don't. I generally think about the chords when I'm walking. More accurately,I've spent a lot of time
studying and practicing chord tones that I'm don't have to think about them when I'm on the bandstand.
[/quote][quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1356260219' post='1908416']
This was my point. It involves a lot of thinking time if you have to decide what mode you use if chords change once or twice in every bar. On a tune like So What there are only really two chords in the whole thing. To keep things interesting then, yes, use the modes. There is plenty of time to think about what you are going to do. Otherwise, as Doddy says, work with chord tones.
[/quote]
That's what i was getting at really. I studied theory and modes loads at college and uni to the point where they are redundant almost. I was quite obsessive at first, coming up with systems of use and learning.Like a relative mode system (i'm not saying i invented it, but i invented it for myself as no one taught it me). For instance, where you use relative major and minor scale shapes to go up the neck i.e Emin, Gmaj, E min, Gmaj etc, I'd do the same with modes i.e E dorian, G Lydian etc. I realise loads of people probably do this but when i was 18 i thought i was a right clever bugger.
I guess my point is, that all the battering of theory and modes leads you to a point, where for me it's just basic notes against chords, back to simplicity. Now i just kind of see the notes when each chord comes up relating it to what as been and what is coming, as bilbo said.

[Doddy]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1356260219' post='1908416']
This was my point. It involves a lot of thinking time if you have to decide what mode you use if chords change once or twice in every bar.
[/quote]

It does involve a lot of thinking time,but that is why you need to spend time in the practice room. The whole idea,not
just with walking lines,is that you don't want to be thinking about things too much when you are on a gig.You can,and
probably should,spend hours working through changes by using chord tones in different inversions and scales and
whatever so that when you get on stage you can see/hear a chord and just know what you can play over it.
It takes time,but it's immensely beneficial.

[GonzoBass]

Well, there is the learning curve at the beginning
(and you're on the right track there)
but over time it becomes second nature.

Much in the same sense that I don't think about the clutch any more when I'm driving...

[Bilbo]

It sometimes frightens me that I can drive 50 miles without thinking about driving! One accident in 30 years which was when I was parking

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1356106033' post='1906973']
chord is major, play ionion over it
chord is minor play aeolian over it
[/quote]

These two are ambigious and you need to know the effective key center to know the right mode (which I think is esentially what bildo was saying ...). Certainly in a rock/pop/blues etc setting, Key center plus chord tones is vastly more useful than trying to compute a mode for each chord. Modes are more useful as harmonic frameworks e.g. understanding why some songs have 7th/9th chord on the IV instead of the V.

[mtroun]

Modes are useful to a point but ultimately there's a lot more to it than knowing what notes are available, there's a heirachy to each note and its relevance to a chord. A good teacher will set you off on the right path but also consider transcribing some walking bass lines recorded by great players (Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, Ray Brown etc) and considering how each note relates to the chord changes.
Might seem like an obvious thing but study with a professional jazz bass player if you can, this tends to be their speciality!

[fatback]

A very helpful thread - thanks all.

For what it's worth, I'm finding walking over a chord chart, alternating with jamming along to the recording, and then working only on groups of chords to explore the transitions all over the board is very helpful.

I was embarrassed that I could do this for one tune for several weeks and still have tons to learn, but it seems to work. For a start, it showed me I was spending too much time on modes and scales and not enough on arpeggios. The good news was the surprise at how the same sequences come up again and again in the standards charts (being new to jazz).

Edited January 2, 2013 by fatback

[Chambo]

I'm just looking over a lot of this stuff again I think there's something I'm not getting
So is it the case that with a major chord, C for example, that all of the notes in the Ionian (C major) will sit against that chord OK?
Wouldn't the 2nd 4th and 7th sound out?

[iconic]

Since I started this topic I wished I'd worded this better with more info understanding

I agree chord tones/arppegios are a great way to go walking.

On modes what I meant to say but didn't realise was playing the appropriate mode over the appropriate scale degree can help...so if its a c major and the chord is dm, picking notes from the dorian mode frees up more notes to play about with, or maybe highlights more notes would be more correct?


It made sense of mode being a useful tool.

[Coilte]

[quote name='Chambo' timestamp='1357247261' post='1919931']
I'm just looking over a lot of this stuff again I think there's something I'm not getting
So is it the case that with a major chord, C for example, that all of the notes in the Ionian (C major) will sit against that chord OK?
Wouldn't the 2nd 4th and 7th sound out?
[/quote]

Non chord tones are used as "passing" notes for making a smooth transition to the next chord.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Chambo' timestamp='1357247261' post='1919931']
I'm just looking over a lot of this stuff again I think there's something I'm not getting
So is it the case that with a major chord, C for example, that all of the notes in the Ionian (C major) will sit against that chord OK?
[b]Wouldn't the 2nd 4th and 7th sound out?[/b]
[/quote]
It all depends on context and how the user employs them.... it is the case that players with good harmonic hearing skills can make notes that are in other contexts 'out' sound in.

[Chambo]

Thanks guys, much appreciated, kinda getting it now. Is there any free software that would let me quickly run a few chords together and play the sequence, so I can noodle over?

I'm thinking the most important thing for me is to: play, learnt the fretboard and chord structures.
Anyone know of any good arpeggio patterns online

[sarah thomas]

I don't know of a free one, but irealb for iphones, ipads and android phones is brilliant. Costs around £7. My other half is planning on buying a Nexus tablet mainly for irealb, but it doesn't quite work on the new tablet yet.

[Chambo]

Looking at that software it'll play the sequence and overlay the guitar chord pattern. Do you know if it's possible to do this showing the chords on bass.

[fatback]

Impro-visor is pretty useful for a freebie. You can turn the bass off in the accompaniment.

http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~keller/jazz/improvisor/

[ML94]

Hi guys

forgive me for my 'thick' questions now

At the momment i am being taught major chord tones and there inversions inside out, to create a walking bassline. How would you use the modes for a walking bassline ? Also how would you work out the relative mode for another mode eg. C lydian is the same as ' ...... '

?

Cheers guys