Ou7shined Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1344582332' post='1766598'] .... Seriously, though, consider other uses of audio components. Expensive bits of hifi amps? Volume pots, transformers and "power" capacitors. I bet serious mixing desk s don't compromise on the quality of their faders... [/quote] Absolutely. But these are components used to produce specific values for the use of other components in complicated electronic circuits. Passive guitar looms are practically stoneage in comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344545487' post='1766358'] But I'm not talking an audio signal. It's an electrical signal. [/quote] You've completely lost me now. Electrical current is an analogue of an electrical signal. But what point are you making? [quote] If two bits of wire have different resistances then they will have an affect on the electrical signal. [/quote] but not on the audio signal I suppose. Ohm's law applies whether the electricity is being used to transfer audio information or drive a train. [quote] As I said I have discussed electrical components with two men. One of which at least is smarter than the majority of posters on this site and gave me a right ear ful for using standard automotive cable. When these two guys who I know have knowledge will not use cheap components because they cannot guarantee their effects on an electrical circuit. I will go with their wisdom. One of which has been involved in testing wire and components on electrical systems of engines. The other who has access to a very wide range of testing apparatus including stuff he is one of only a handful in the UK qualified to use. I will take their word over it [/quote] Oh right, that's us told then. I'm out, got this law degree to study for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344587771' post='1766650']... Not a trap. If you can hear a 250K pot rolled off half way which is 125K from full open why are you saying people can't hear the difference between a true 500K pot and one whos actual value is 125K more. Saying it's nothing more than the brain wishing to hear something. When you roll your 250K pot back half way are you just hearing what you think you should hear. After all you are changing the resistance by the same amount... [/quote] Mate I never said anything of the sort at any time in this thread. I think you're getting yourself in mucking fuddle trying to make this whole thing more complex than it actually is. Presumably because you've not quoted any of the rest of what I said in my last post, the penny has dropped. Now all you have to do is apply that same knowledge to the tone pot. Only this time there is a capacitor there and rather than letting all of the signal being lost to earth as you saw in the vol pot, the cap (at a point defined by it's value) selects a frequency limit that the audio signal from the pups is split at. And like before your pot acts as a valve varying how much of that high frequency disappears to earth. The difference we hear has been labeled "tone". It's not imaginary or whatever words you are trying to put into my mouth, it is still very much your original signal only now some higher frequencies have been physically removed (or allowed to take the path of least resistance - oh no there's that word again ) . How could you not hear it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344588678' post='1766662'] The whole thing is a very basic electrical system. Put anything in the system between the generator (Pups) and the out put (speaker ) and it affects the current. It's the current that gets turned into the sound. There is nothing audio about it between the pups and the speaker. In practical terms the bass is a generator and your speaker is a motor. Obviously the bass on it's own is not enough so your amp increases the current from the bass. [/quote] You've been reading too much of Mark D Philips' literature. It's starting to rub off on you mate. [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344588678' post='1766662'] EVERYTHING in an electrical system has an affect, no matter how small. Because we are talking about minute currents it doesn't take much to change it before it hits the amp. If you put in crappy wire with a higher resistance it will have an affect. Saying otherwise is saying that wire has no affect of electric. [/quote] That's true... but if, as was told you by an expert on here not long ago, super accurate apparatus can hardly register it then what chance have our ears. And you yourself said you have cloth ears, so why bother. Edited August 10, 2012 by Ou7shined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesh Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) If you give your bass, and several hundred quid, to a renowned techy, and if he secretly does precisely nothing to it and then gives it you back, it will subjectively sound better. If you give him more money it will sound even better. Fact. Edited August 10, 2012 by Kesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344596475' post='1766834'] The penny hasn't dropped as there is no penny to drop I just couldn't be arsed. It's simple. The bass is an electrical circuit with a generator and an output. Just like ANY electrical circuit what you put in the middle makes a difference. Saying wire doesn't make any difference is saying their is no difference in wire. Which is bullshit, or should I phone Shorts and say I have some three core going cheap they could put into their missiles because it does the same job as the stuff they are using? You put up a link to a video that says most changes are percieved changes not real changes. So if you roll back your 250K tone to 125K is that a real change or a perceived one. I would presume real. If I put a pot that is out of spec by the same amount how come it apparently makes no difference. After all thats what I have been told on this thread. So why does 125k one way make a difference but not the other? And yet I have a guy that has access to apparatus who swears by using "proper" stuff but I guess he swears by the "proper" stuff just for the hell of it. He has access to testing gear Including gear that there is that few of in the UK he gets paid to go to Scotland to use it and had to go to America for training. Doing this stuff for decades. He'll turn down quite lucrative homers if the customer wants to supply the parts and he's not making money on them he sells the parts at cost. Just because he won't have his name attached to something "Substandard", Even though you or I looking in couldn't tell the difference. Am I supposed to say see that stuff your paying a fortune for, it doesn't matter? Another guy who tells me on a test rig they can tell the difference with wire feeding an injector. A system with much higher voltage and ampage. That repairing an ECU with cheap resistors affects the output to a measurable degree. All things they tested in real time. Turning around to these guys and saying components don't matter is like telling Ron Dennis not to bother polishing his cars it doesn't make them faster. Basically what you are telling me is . One of the most respected guys in his field worldwide at the time (He has since Retired) and an electrician for almost thirty years working day in and day out on this stuff either are liars or know nothing. I actually find that quite offensive. But then we all know each other from a world were every little detail matters. and nothing is left to chance. [/quote] Dude, you appear to be losing the plot. Seriously, go back and read over the thread from the start as what you have just said has been dealt with over and over... also please note that not one person has said anything against your mates, in fact I have confirmed on a couple of occasions that what they have conveyed to you is correct... it's just that it has little bearing on this topic. It's you yourself who is confusing matters. Wow my 1st post here was good call alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 do you think that if you are working with stuff that you will be shipped to scotland to do, and to the USA for training then you might be working on stuff a bit more complex than a passive bass volume and tone? In my mind if you are doing the electronics for Trident or something you use the best you can. Lets consider something more complex than a passive bass.... how about an amp? Now lets imagine you are building something that has to last for years, using high voltages and in reasonably rough handling conditions. Ofcourse the tolerances of the components matter, and the build construction and the transformer, and the quality of the pots you are using. My amp (Tecamp) is boutique enough I know that they will have used decent parts in it (lets not get into mass produced amps and their quality/profit decisions ) say I am buying a bass, or getting one made for me- maybe from that great builder Osprey Guitars- I want decent parts and probably I will spec CTS or similar mid level pots (lets remember they aren't actually high end here) simply as they have a good rep, and no doubt Ou7shined has a stash of them anyway. And I am sure that the CTS would be more reliable, smoother and more consistent than some cheaper made parts. What I have trouble accepting- and what no one has given any kind of explanation for is this: How can a passive circuit with a 250k ohms resistor sound different to a passive circuit with a different 250k ohms resistor (- at the tiny currents we would expect in a guitar loom. ) yes I get it's in the signal chain, and in mechanical design one can be better than another but electronically and audibility? Interestingly the input stage on the amp, or even the capacitance of the cable will make far bigger difference to sound than the pots- but none ever seems to discuss amps input stages! I have my warwick set up wired to jack at the mo while I save up for a new pre.... and last week it sounded awful- turns out the resonance of the old cable I was using, the resonance of the bass the input stage of my amp and my cab all added together didn't sound nice. Different cable and it was fine (and the -10 stage on the amp also sorted it too) anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) edited to remove sound of facepalm Edited August 10, 2012 by bremen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckendrick Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1344513115' post='1765663'] Warning: I can't spell. [/quote] But you know when you're right.... [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1344465870' post='1765177'] ...intreaged... [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacker Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344612097' post='1767171'] Well then Breman educate me on why I can't hear the difference between a pot at 634K and one at 250K but can if I turn a pot down? Tell me why wire, the thing that carries the electric that comes in all sorts of different specifications has absolutely no bearing on the current that goes through it? But yet as we all know the higher the resistance the harder it is for the electric to flow through it. But that doesn't make a difference does it? [/quote] Just leave it, man. He's got a Law degree to do........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacker Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344632578' post='1767492'] OHMs law ? I have a degree in Murphys law. [/quote] Beamish, for me, though you hardly see it this side of Dublin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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