Bilbo Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I have a number of solo double bass recordings that I love and they all sound different and great but, when I try to record my own double bass, its lacks the presence of the 'professional' recordings. I use a Rode NT 1-A into Cubase and it always sounds like I am playing in a massive room and the bass is 10 feet from the mic, even if the mic is actually only inches away from the bass. Obviously, my cheap bass isn't going to sound like Charlie Haden's Jean Auray bass but it is not the sound of the bass I am concerned about, it is the ability to record the instrument as it sounds in the room you are playing it in rather than like you are recording it at a gig on a mobile phoe Anyone got any credible ideas? I looked elsewhere on here but couldn't find anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Its a tough one Bilbo, but the truth may be, go find, or make a better sounding room. How big is the room you are recording in, and what kind of work have you dont to control the acoustics in there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 Its an attic room (sloping ceiling) about 12 x 10. Full of book shelves, guitars and gear. Rugs on laminate flooring. My thoughts are maybe I have the wrong type of mic (large diaphragm cardioid condenser microphone) but, of course, the room itself may be a major contributing factor. Doh! I may try some blankets on walls. A reflection filter is an idea but not really affordable. I could try micing and using the pick-up/Fishman Pro simultaneously and mix the two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) Seems a bit odd. Its not a particularly large room Embarrasing question time - are you sure you have the right side of the mic pointing at the bass? You wouldn't be the first or last person to make that mistake with an LDC (check the manual before you answer!). If you are inches away and the room small and is full of clutter I would expect the room to be in the recording but not dominating, unless you had the back of the mic facing the bass of course.... As for pickup + mic this is tricky for db as the instrument tends to move, and this can play havoc with phase against the pup, particularly when close micing. Edited November 22, 2011 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 Good point. I will check re: mic direction (I am not infalliable) but I think the mic is the right way around (it has a little spot thing on the right side). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Yup, gold spot toward the source on them. Odd. Can you post an example? WRT pup * mic, if you can suspend the mic from the dB in some way then its distance from the instrument will remain the same and you moving around will not cause phase issues to occur throughout the performance. Where abouts is the mic in relation to the db? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 As for the mic being pointin in an odd direction, there are recordings of note where just such a mistake has lead to tones that people have spent yearss trying to recreate. One that springs to mind is the guitar tone on Money For Nothing, apparently total accident, mic was knocked, it was pointing at the floor and they didnt realise until after the take, and try as they might they couldnt repeat the sound again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1321976315' post='1445032'] Where abouts is the mic in relation to the db? [/quote] I have tried all sorts of angles and distances, high up, low down. Best is in close near the bridge but it still doesn't sound 'there'. I am thinking I will try to kill the room noise first. See whether that takes me forward. I suspect its a question of addressing a few things rather than just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Killing room reflections is one thing, but you will struggle to do so evenly wrt frequency response. The easy ones to kill are the highest, the lower the frequency the better its ability to pentrate 'stuff'. Thus you hear bass from outside a club, and when putting absorption materials into a live room you tend to kill the top end making the room progressively darker sounding without solving reflection issues lower down the frequency spectrum. With a room that sizer there is no trivial way of dealing with low frequency room modes and reflected energy. It requires tuned dampening like a membrane absorber or hermholtz resonator, which is definitely entering the non trivial area of acoustics. Another technique used in live rooms and control rooms that allows the top end energy to be more successfully retained in the room but scatter it more effectively is to use diffusers. Again the room is on the small side for this. I think (though I cant prove a thing from here) that the early reflections in the room are probably loud and very direct. This mic is cardioid and that means it picks up reasoanbly large amounts of info from the sides, looking at the response/frequency curve its particularly good up around 4KHz all the way around to 270 degrees off axis - which doesn tmake it ideal if you dont want to capture room noise. In order to lessen this you can surround the mic's sides and back with some for of make do gobo - heavy suspended material like very heavy carpet over the top of heavy cushions can be a start. You will need to experiment a lot but you can get this tighter to the mic and therefore need less material to achieve a result. Gobos are bloody heavy as a rule, and are acoustically absorbant across a broad frequency range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimskidog Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Room is likely a big factor here. If you work on the basis a 100hz wave is 18 feet tall you quickly get to understand why. gobos will help make the sound more present but there are other things you can also think of: Is the Nt1a the only mic you have available? What preamp are you using? Cheaper ones such as the old platinum series from focusrite were notoriously bad for making things sound thin and distant. Also think about compression. The right compressor will bring the instrument 'forward'. Also, are you listening to the recording in the context of the mix or solo'd? If the latter, try it in the context of the mix. You might be surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 [quote name='Rimskidog' timestamp='1321994641' post='1445350'] Room is likely a big factor here. If you work on the basis a 100hz wave is 18 feet tall you quickly get to understand why. gobos will help make the sound more present but there are other things you can also think of: Is the Nt1a the only mic you have available? What preamp are you using? Cheaper ones such as the old platinum series from focusrite were notoriously bad for making things sound thin and distant. Also think about compression. The right compressor will bring the instrument 'forward'. Also, are you listening to the recording in the context of the mix or solo'd? If the latter, try it in the context of the mix. You might be surprised. [/quote] Spot on. Focusrite Platinum. I have other options I can use as a pre amp so will try that. There is a lot of stuff here that is useful and has given me a lot to think about and try. Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottle Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Rimskidog' timestamp='1321994641' post='1445350'] Room is likely a big factor here. If you work on the basis a 100hz wave is 18 feet tall you quickly get to understand why. gobos will help make the sound more present but there are other things you can also think of: Is the Nt1a the only mic you have available? What preamp are you using? Cheaper ones such as the old platinum series from focusrite were notoriously bad for making things sound thin and distant. Also think about compression. The right compressor will bring the instrument 'forward'. Also, are you listening to the recording in the context of the mix or solo'd? If the latter, try it in the context of the mix. You might be surprised. [/quote] [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1322039965' post='1445613'] Spot on. Focusrite Platinum. I have other options I can use as a pre amp so will try that. There is a lot of stuff here that is useful and has given me a lot to think about and try. Thanks guys. [/quote] I have a small diaphragm condenser mic you can borrow Bilbo - it's another Rode, an NT4, which is a stereo mic with a fixed 90[sup]o[/sup] XY arrangement. I also have a cheap Behringer two-channel compressor which you're welcome to try out - YMMV Ta, Ian Edited November 24, 2011 by Bottle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 Thanks, Ian. The offer is appreciated. I may come back to you on that, depending on what level of success I have. The only other mic I have is an SM58 and obviously the option of going direct in using the pick-up and Fishman but that latter seems a real shame in terms of missing the resonance of the beast. There is now a list of things to try so I will have a go at some of these and see what progress I can make. Can I stuff a gobo with a Yorkshire Terrier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Have you tried turning the DB through 90 degrees, slimming down the body, shortening the neck and fitting a pickup between the bridge and the neck joint? Works every time for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 [quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1322048600' post='1445742'] Have you tried turning the DB through 90 degrees, slimming down the body, shortening the neck and fitting a pickup between the bridge and the neck joint? [/quote] Tried that. Sounded like a child's toy in comparison. Aborted the idea quite quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I would suggest a preamp for the mic too. You may have to consider mixing several sources to get the desired sound. So a mic or two or three on the bass, an ambient room mic and maybe even a mic in front of your amp. Obviously not ideal, but it may yield good results if a little more time consuming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolganoFF Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I don't know the reason but I always had better sounding DB recordings using XY stereo mics (small diaphragme condenser), even if mixed to mono later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 Great stuff. Will try it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 Here is one I did earlier, I added reverb for colour/warmth, as much by habit as anything, but it still sounds 'out there' and lacking in depth/immediacy. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/158484-bilbo-tries-mr-pc-for-solo-double-bass"]http://basschat.co.u...olo-double-bass[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 Spent some time on it last night, focussing on mic placement and using all sorts of stuff to act as quai-gobos. Still not 100% by any means (the 'gobos' are thick blackets over music stands and chairs and sh*t) but the results are already a lot better. I have a recorded sample I will put up later (can't do it in work) to show folk waht I mean. I'm not there yet but I can certainly see the direction of travel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimskidog Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1322039965' post='1445613'] Spot on. Focusrite Platinum. I have other options I can use as a pre amp so will try that. There is a lot of stuff here that is useful and has given me a lot to think about and try. Thanks guys. [/quote] Haha! Not often I'm wrong but I'm right again! What other preamp options have you got? Try the sm57 and a different preamp (unless I have a fet 47 lying around or going for a stylised sound I'll almost always reach for a large diaphragm dynamic for DB such as a D12/D112, RE20 or SM7. Gobo the DB. Place the mic a bit of distance (maybe 18 inches to 2 feet) from the db at about the height of, and pointing at about, the bottom of the neck. Keep the mic in that position but experiment with where it points by moving where it is pointing in tiny increments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 Here is last nights effort. [url="http://soundcloud.com/robert-palmer-1/sample-recording"]http://soundcloud.com/robert-palmer-1/sample-recording[/url] My other option for preamping is a Behringer mixing desk. Probably even worse! I think its just a case of trial and error using the information already provided. The sound above is closer to what I want although a higher level would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonbass Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 The new version seems much nearer the mark Bilbo. There does seem to be quite a lot of hiss on the recording though; is this coming from a compressor or noise gate or similar? And I once got a very intimate DB sound on and EUB by using a tiny instrument mic (which I think was a condenser designed for violins) right ON the end of the fingerboard between the A and the D string, so perhaps try putting the Rode between the strings and the bass itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 There is a hiss that is something to do with my PC - its only there when I launch Cubase! I assume its some earth loop or something but I can't seem to find it. It drives me nuts but I can't make it stop. Its like a high pitched whine that is just within the range of my hearing. I guess its a cheap gear thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimskidog Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 The nosie could be a number of things. You just need to work through methodically isolating everything until you find it. Alternatively, the downside of using a dynamic is they need a lot of clean gain. Neither of your preamps are renowned for that. Maybe thing about a preamp upgrade? The FMR RNP is a stunning little pre and shouldnt break the bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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