BigBeefChief Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Bass about 15 months. Guitar (badly) off and on for about 8 years (although you'd struggle to tell!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Are we not straying into the realms of "what works for one person might not work for others" here ? Most especially in an artistic context (as opposed to a purely technical one) I don't think you can generalise too much about these things. Everybody is different. Some have natural abilities that place them above others before they even start to practice their instrument. Others get to a level of competence by sheer determination and hard work. Neither is better than the other - just different. And when it comes to the end result (i.e. music) you cannot compare it at all - it's art ! Some people will love the results some will hate it. Having listened a little to the some of work Janek does I would say that he would have to keep up a rigorous practice schedule (yes, perhaps even 10 hours a day) to maintain the standards required for that work. And being able to play fast would also fit in with that genre of music. Furthermore I accept the argument that if you do practice uo to 10 hours a day and can play at those speeds, then you would be able to handle just about anything thrown at you. But he's a professional musician. That's what he needs to do to stay at the top of his game. On the other hand, many of us amateurs will have no need for that level of technical skill (although aiming high won't do us any harm). Also, even professional gigging musicians playing within the constraints of a single band format are also unlikely to need that level of technical skill - but it won't do any harm. The title of the article at the start of all this was "Modern Bass Improvisations". Surely that title is crucial. How many of use need to do "improvisations" regularly ? But if that's what you do then you'll need to get your technical skills in order and Janek's suggested practice regime will undoubtedly get you there. I don't play at that level. My aims are much simpler. Once I've worked out a piece I'll stick with the aim of being able to play it 10 times in a row without a single mistake (and if I make a mistake I have to start counting all over again). I'm still working on Mustang Sally.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I think it is important to acknowledge that music is, whether we like it or not, a package and that technical ability is not the only ingredient on which it is judged. There are a lot of purists out there who like to think that they only listen to music as a pure expression of the individual artist but I suspect they are deluding themselves. The package of which I speak includes things such as inspiration, communication, immediacy, dancability, image, originality, spontaneity, virtuosity, excellence... this list is pretty long. Janek's aspiration for virtuosity is perfectly credible and, as I have already said, commendable. But it is not the only way. 'Madness', for instance, would appeal to people who look for immediacy, dancability, communication etc. People who want those aspects of the music in their individual 'mix' will inevitably struggle with some of the more cerebral musics where inspiration, originality, spontaneity, virtuosity etc are to the fore. The greatest selling artist of all time will be the one who manages get the full range of pertinent factors into one product. Who has come near? Stevie Wonder? Prince? Pat Metheny? The Beatles? Genesis? These guys have all had massive success with a significant part of the public but no-one has got everyone on board. Also, as their mix changes, they lose part of their audience (eg when Genesis started doing 4 minute singles instead of CD length epics, they lost a lot of fans as well as gained some). So, an original, spontaneous, danceable, image conscious virtuoso who communicates and inspires.... when one of those appears, we will all be happy. Until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree. But, then again, you can disagree without being disagreeable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='154549' date='Mar 10 2008, 02:23 PM']Goin back to the painting analogy, I agree that practice improves your bility to make marks on a canvas. You can practice painting in all styles and become very accomplished. You could also develop some pretty firm ideas as to how to paint in a certain style. What would happen if someone who had never painted before picked up a brush and started slapping paint around? It would not be as good technically, but it may be just as creative. It would certainly be different and less likely to conform to any known styles. Hell, it could even be more creative than the pro's picture![/quote] Yeh, exactly. I fail to see how studying Pablo Picasso, or Vincent Van Gogh would have helped Tracy Emin f*ck up her bedroom. Not that i'm a fan of her work, it's just I think there is a valid point here. I personally did spend a lot of time learning all the theory I could stomache. I've forgotten it all now, but my hands still remember. I suppose if this is what everyone's going for, then fine, but I really doubt whether players that practice 10 hours a day until they can play faster than they will ever need to will ever be able to forget their theory. I find it hard enough to play something unconventional, and this frustrates me. I suppose i'm one example of a player sufferring the detriment of learning theory as it has deffinitely limited my creativity in the past. I'm my no means a technical/fast player though. EDIT: Wow, we're replying fast on this thread!! I just wanted to say that I don't think this is subjective. I think we can probably generalise and say that if you want to create music that sound original, or is unconventional, then learning music theory and complicated/fast techniques can be detrimental to the creativity required. Obviously, if you're the fastest most brilliant bassist in the land, you can play anything. Whether or not you could have written it........ Edited March 10, 2008 by cheddatom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 10 times? Once through with less than 5 mistakes does it for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='154564' date='Mar 10 2008, 02:32 PM']10 times? Once through with less than 5 mistakes does it for me![/quote] So you're saying you get the jist of what you're learning and let it develop from there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I know I've been on this f*cking thread too long when I find myself agreeing 100% with Bilbo! Well put mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='154568' date='Mar 10 2008, 02:36 PM']I know I've been on this f*cking thread too long when I find myself agreeing 100% with Bilbo! Well put mate.[/quote] BBC and Bilbo, sitting in a tree, J A Z Z I N G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote]For those who think I'm saying "practice is wrong" - I'm not at all[/quote] It's alright BBC, I never got the impression you thought that. I do think you have a valid point about technical ability posing a threat to creativity. It is very easy to think that because you [i]can[/i] play x notes per second over x different scales that you [i]have[/i] to do so. Is that at least one aspect of the point you're making? I would say that is an entirely real and plausible issue we face as improving musicians. However, I would like to point out that technical ability on its own is transparent; it is not creative, it is not egotistical, it is not proud, it's just ability. So I would submit that purely technical players don't lack creativity because of their technical prowess, they just lack creativity (in at least the pieces they choose to play or have written); those that play overindulgently don't play that way because of their ability to play overindulgent stuff, it's due to ego and pride. Do you see what I'm suggesting? Taking that one step further, it is entirely fair to say practicing [i]only[/i] technical aspects will leave you as an unbalanced and perhaps uncreative player. You need to practice creativity too. However, to say that you should not practice such elements for fear of losing creativity is a very very poor excuse. Technical ability combined with a creative player can produce truly stupendous works of musical art. That is something I want to strive for and think is worth striving for. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='154574' date='Mar 10 2008, 02:42 PM']I would say that is an entirely real and plausible issue we face as improving musicians. However, I would like to point out that technical ability on its own is transparent; it is not creative, it is not egotistical, it is not proud, it's just ability.[/quote] I don't agree that technical ability is transparent. I'm not sure about the actual brain functions and etc, and it would be interesting for someone who knows to come on and post? But, I thought of learning the bass like building up a set of habits. I would play the same scales over and over again, or practice the same hard/fast riff. Especially when improvising, I would have a few little "runs" that i'd like to do, and I could play them in whatever key and sound semi-impressive. Obviously the idea is to build up an infinite number of habits, creating a sort of infinite creativity. Anyway, that didn't work out, so now every time I play something i've heard myself play before (unless it's a song i'm working on), I stop and play something else. I don't know if i've explained this very well, but what I mean is that technical ability always comes with the bagage created by the learning process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) I suppose my issue is on the reliance of technical ability over the reliance on creativity. To me, and again this is opinion based on my musical tastes, there are some players who are working profesionals today moreso because of technical ability than creativity. Fair play to them, they earn a living. Its just not my bag. Edited March 10, 2008 by BigBeefChief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote]Complete agreement here.[/quote] Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7string Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) But how do you practice creativity? Surely you have to get out and play with others and learn to weave lines around other players. It's great having the technical side, but if you can't play with other players it's all meaningless. Just thought of this as well... Take an opera singer such as Jose Carreras. Great technical voice. Get him to sing West Side Story and he has a hard time with it. All the technique he had didn't help him apply that to another genre of music. Edited March 10, 2008 by 7string Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote name='7string' post='154587' date='Mar 10 2008, 02:53 PM']Take an opera singer such as Jose Carreras. Great technical voice. Get him to sing West Side Story and he has a hard time with it. All the technique he had didn't help him apply that to another genre of music.[/quote] Ah but that surely depends on exactly what he has been practicing. In his case I would guess all his practicing would be geared towards opera singing, as opposed to a more general practice regime that would allow for different musical styles. If you practice different styles of playing then this would prepare you better for applying this in different musical fields. So you need to ensure what you practice fits your needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Getting back on topic, Janek's article was about practicing for modern improvisation - quite specifically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote name='BOD2' post='154591' date='Mar 10 2008, 03:02 PM']Getting back on topic, Janek's article was about practicing for modern improvisation - quite specifically.[/quote] This topic has morphed out of your control! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Even creativity in music is of limited merchantable value. Most people LIKE predictable and unoriginal (have you seen the size of those Irish/Country music stalls at markets. Charlie Landsborough sings Danny Boy (again)). That's why the X Factor has more viewers than Later with Jools Holland. People don't like to be challenged. In all actuality, creativity is probably one of if not [i]the[/i] least marketable musical skill. Most players nowadays, professional or amateur, earn most of their money from just regurgitating someone elses cliches. Sad but true. Edited March 10, 2008 by bilbo230763 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote name='cheddatom' post='154593' date='Mar 10 2008, 03:05 PM']This topic has morphed out of your control![/quote] I accept that fact. I'm just happy it has morphed into an intelligent discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='154598' date='Mar 10 2008, 03:07 PM']Sad but true.[/quote] Yeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7string Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Very true !! The OP was commenting that he didn't believe the claims made in "Modern bass improvisations". So now we know that the author, does not practice 10 hours a day every day and that some of the notes were misprinted making them seem faster than they should have been. So it seems that the page cannot be taken at face value... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote name='7string' post='154607' date='Mar 10 2008, 03:13 PM']So it seems that the page cannot be taken at face value...[/quote] Someone will be telling us not to believe everything we read in the newspapers next ! I'm so disillusioned now (I think the 10 hours a day/fast playing was probably suggested as more of a "target" but, yes you're right. But then I've never even read the original article so why am I sticking up for it !) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote]But how do you practice creativity? Surely you have to get out and play with others and learn to weave lines around other players. It's great having the technical side, but if you can't play with other players it's all meaningless[/quote] I'm afraid that's not something I can quantitatively answer. It's where the science of practice meets the art of creativity. I for one like to use creativity to master my technical ability. For example, one idea I like to use is that I create pieces, progressions, rhythms etc that make very little sense and perhaps sound very angular or bizarre, then try to make musical sense of them such that something 'awful' becomes something lyrical and musical. It breaks down barriers you've erected from too much theory and forces your ear and brain to hear and think of something new. It also adds to your repertoire and your own voice. Try it yourself! I also agree with the get out and play aspect too. Playing with other musicians is wonderful, unfortunately I meet fewer and fewer who wish to improve with the same fervour I have. Most reach a plateau of comfort, complacency or just due to time constraints. Means I get bored and frustrated (every so often) with musicians who lack the the ability to play something, but also lack the vision to bring out new ideas i.e. creativity. The two are linked in some bizarre way, they complement each other, but they seem to be at odds in so many musicians... Alas. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I think The Sun (where I get all my insightful views) is pretty reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='154617' date='Mar 10 2008, 03:22 PM']I think The Sun (where I get all my insightful views) is pretty reliable.[/quote] "Gotcha" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s_u_y_* Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Ah... the thread has into a reasonable debate. Glad to see that this thread has been rescued in such a way. I do see BBC's sentiments and see where he is coming from. I know musicians who had become so transfixed on technique, their musicality suffered. However, I do think it is important to push where you are in terms of technique. If we use language as a metaphor, raising one's technique could be liken to increasing one's vocabulary. Vocabulary is important in speech-making. But great communicators are made from much more than just the words they use. How the words are put together, how the words are delivered are just as important. At the end of the day, great musicality is what we all strive for. What we do and how we do it should only matter as a way to express that music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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