jhsteel Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 As part of my degree I have to write a dissertation. My idea is to write it with the question, "How unique is Jaco Pastorius?". Obviously you can't really argue against the fact that in terms of bass playing Jaco is most definitely unique. However, in terms of music there is a train of thought that would suggest a lot of his ideas came from a huge range of sometimes very obvious influences ie. Charlie Parker, Stravinsky, Jerry Jemmott. Could you argue that Jaco's ideas weren't unique but just other instrumental parts played on bass? Basically what I'm trying to do for my dissertation is put forward both sides of the argument and come to a conclusion based on my research. At the moment my opinion is that Jaco was unique. Based on what I already know and love about his music and playing it seems hard to imagine you can think otherwise. I suppose thats where the research comes in. Just wondered what everyones thoughts were on this subject and if anyone has attempted any academic writing on Jaco. Be great to get the opinion of the online bass community. Who knows, you might even get referenced. Cheers, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Sorry to be pedantic, but the question is grammatically incorrect He's either unique or he isn't, so perhaps you should say "To what extent is Jaco Pastorius unique?" I don't have much to add regarding Jaco's influences but perhaps it'd be an idea to look at those who have taken influence from Jaco and maybe determine whether he can still be "unique" after being copied, even if he was "original" at the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhsteel Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 Don't think its grammatically incorrect. Think you just worded it better. Cheers mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj5string Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Sure Jaco had loads of influences - but all the great musicians have; for me, most of the time when a musician does something new and exciting, a lot of the time it is because they have taking on lots of things before them and not dismissed inspirations. I guess you need to decide how he was unique and how he wasn't. He was doing things on the bass that no-one had done before, but arguably, also doing things that other musicians hadn't done before. He took the bass and really pushed it to the front of the music - i think he was probably the first 'jazz' player to do that. Also, you need to take into account the fact that he was playing about 30 years ago; sure his approach isn't unique now, but it was very different at the time... His impact on the music is undeniable, and he is one of the few musicians (on any instrument) that still is remarkable now: people can appreciate people like Hendrix for his musicality, but he has bee surpassed technically - I don't think anyone has matched Jacos combination of musicality and technicality on the bass... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dotmaka Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 By the end of writing a dissertation on him you will certainly hate him, so you'll probably decide he wasn't unique at all ! And regarding grammer, surely it should be 'was' rather than 'is,' unless he's doing a 2pac on us of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Just wondered what everyones thoughts were on this subject and if [b]anyone has attempted any academic writing on Jaco.[/b] Be great to get the opinion of the online bass community. Who knows, you might even get referenced. I assume you have read the book by Bill Milkowski(although not academic) : The Extraordinary and Tragic Life of JP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhsteel Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 [quote name='yorks5stringer' post='141966' date='Feb 17 2008, 04:40 PM']I assume you have read the book by Bill Milkowski(although not academic) : The Extraordinary and Tragic Life of JP?[/quote] Yeah, read it a few times. Great book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hutton Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I don't know too much about Jaco but I certainly wish you all the best with the dissertation. I wouldn't worry about grammar on this forum, unfussy people know what you mean. Plus I'm sure that when you write up your final draft it will be well polished! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) [quote name='aj5string' post='141934' date='Feb 17 2008, 03:26 PM']I guess you need to decide how he was unique and how he wasn't. He was doing things on the bass that no-one had done before, but arguably, also doing things that other musicians hadn't done before. He took the bass and really pushed it to the front of the music - i think he was probably the first 'jazz' player to do that. Also, you need to take into account the fact that he was playing about 30 years ago; sure his approach isn't unique now, but it was very different at the time...[/quote] I agreed with most of your post but the bit I have quoted above is a little off the mark. It's true that Jaco was the first really high profile bass player, who is still known today, to do the things you said (mainly because weather report were a stadium act, unheard of in the early jazz era) but there were many bass players playing solos and being more involved upfront before Jaco came to fame. The obvious examples, going way back, are Jimmy Blanton an amazing player who had a very prominent role in Duke Ellingtons orchestra, there are recordings of him playing a very 'up front' role. Scott LaFaro who played an almost telepathic joint front position with Bill Evans in the great trio recordings of the 50s and 60s. To a slightly lesser extent you could say that Ray Brown played more up front than many other predecessors but that was mainly due again to the almost telepathic relationship he had with Oscar Peterson, Ed Thigpen and Herb Ellis, which meant he flowed in and out of accompaniment and solo roles effortlessly. To refer to the OPs question the above are just three examples of many players pre Jaco who were significant and prominent in the music and its history, and I think it would add depth and integrity to your dissertation to explore the true beginings of the bass' solo role. FYI the recordings with Jimmy Blanton go back to the very early Ellington days, he played with him for 2 yrs from 1939 a full 37 yrs before Jaco really made an impact with his first solo album of 1976 Edited February 18, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantdosleepy Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='141905' date='Feb 17 2008, 02:44 PM']Sorry to be pedantic, but the question is grammatically incorrect He's either unique or he isn't, so perhaps you should say "To what extent is Jaco Pastorius unique?" I don't have much to add regarding Jaco's influences but perhaps it'd be an idea to look at those who have taken influence from Jaco and maybe determine whether he can still be "unique" after being copied, even if he was "original" at the time[/quote] Your phrasing is incorrect as well. A quick tip on using the word unique - it's an absolute, a 1 or 0 value. If you're having trouble using it, try swapping it out for another 'absolute' word that you're more comfortable with. A good simple one is 'pregnant'. You either are or aren't pregnant. So to test the previous two sentences: "To what extent is Jaco Pastorius pregnant?" doesn't work any better than "How pregnant is Jaco Pastorius?" From this description, '[i]Obviously you can't really argue against the fact that in terms of bass playing Jaco is most definitely unique. However, in terms of music there is a train of thought that would suggest a lot of his ideas came from a huge range of sometimes very obvious influences ie. Charlie Parker, Stravinsky, Jerry Jemmott. Could you argue that Jaco's ideas weren't unique but just other instrumental parts played on bass[/i]', a good title might be: 'Jaco pastorius: unique as a musician, or just as a bass player?' You can always substitute 'bass player' with 'player of the electric bass', 'musician on the electric bass' or another more technical term. The word 'just' should be used under advisement, as well. 'Jaco pastorius: unique as a musician, or as a musician on the electric bass?' is probably better but less catchy. This title would give you good scope to analyse his groundbreaking work on the instrument but also discuss his wider musical influences. Getting a good title is an important part of a good dissertation - define your ambits, reinforces your angle! Hope this helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantdosleepy Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 And, of course, neither of my sentences stand up to the 'pregnant' substitution test. Way to go, sleepy. But (if you'll go with me on this) they don't work under the test because of pregnant's unique (heh) characteristic as a state [i]and[/i] an attribute. Gah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj5string Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 [quote name='jakesbass' post='142346' date='Feb 18 2008, 11:07 AM']I agreed with most of your post but the bit I have quoted above is a little off the mark. It's true that Jaco was the first really high profile bass player, who is still known today, to do the things you said (mainly because weather report were a stadium act, unheard of in the early jazz era) but there were many bass players playing solos and being more involved upfront before Jaco came to fame. The obvious examples, going way back, are Jimmy Blanton an amazing player who had a very prominent role in Duke Ellingtons orchestra, there are recordings of him playing a very 'up front' role. Scott LaFaro who played an almost telepathic joint front position with Bill Evans in the great trio recordings of the 50s and 60s. To a slightly lesser extent you could say that Ray Brown played more up front than many other predecessors but that was mainly due again to the almost telepathic relationship he had with Oscar Peterson, Ed Thigpen and Herb Ellis, which meant he flowed in and out of accompaniment and solo roles effortlessly. To refer to the OPs question the above are just three examples of many players pre Jaco who were significant and prominent in the music and its history, and I think it would add depth and integrity to your dissertation to explore the true beginings of the bass' solo role. FYI the recordings with Jimmy Blanton go back to the very early Ellington days, he played with him for 2 yrs from 1939 a full 37 yrs before Jaco really made an impact with his first solo album of 1976[/quote] I wrote that whilst drinking tea, and forgot to point something out... i'm currently writing my own dissertation, but mine is on the negative stigma surrounding the bass guitar in Jazz, so am kinda in the mindset of the bass guitar being a different instrument to the double bass. I totally agree with what your saying, and think with all dissertations etc. you have to put into place some of your own rules - 10k words (or whatever the OP is working to) is actually not a lot if your writing about something you are passionate about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) [quote name='aj5string' post='142391' date='Feb 18 2008, 12:34 PM']I wrote that whilst drinking tea, and forgot to point something out... i'm currently writing my own dissertation, but mine is on the negative stigma surrounding the bass guitar in Jazz, so am kinda in the mindset of the bass guitar being a different instrument to the double bass. I totally agree with what your saying, and think with all dissertations etc. you have to put into place some of your own rules - 10k words (or whatever the OP is working to) is actually not a lot if your writing about something you are passionate about.[/quote] Perfectly reasonable answer and if the parameters of study are narrowed to the electric bass then you are absolutely right. Although it may still prove useful to the OP to contextualise it as jazz bass rather than electric bass in order to open the opportuniy to widen the historical scope (his choice of course) Jake In my mind the double and electric have equal validity in music and its history, and I think it a shame that there is a "stigma" to be discussed. as you can see from my sig, I play both professionally Edited February 18, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj5string Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 [quote name='jakesbass' post='142410' date='Feb 18 2008, 12:55 PM']In my mind the double and electric have equal validity in music and its history, and I think it a shame that there is a "stigma" to be discussed. as you can see from my sig, I play both professionally[/quote] I totally agree, but there is definitely a stigma (in my opinion of course), and its something i am both interested in, and have first hand experience of, so thought this would be a good opportunity to research it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRinser Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Didn't Jaco once say 'I know where I stole every note'? Not that that makes him any less of a unique genius talent on bass, or off it... Just lots of influences. And practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 [quote name='jakesbass' post='142346' date='Feb 18 2008, 11:07 AM']The obvious examples, going way back, are Jimmy Blanton an amazing player who had a very prominent role in Duke Ellingtons orchestra, there are recordings of him playing a very 'up front' role. FYI the recordings with Jimmy Blanton go back to the very early Ellington days, he played with him for 2 yrs from 1939 a full 37 yrs before Jaco really made an impact with his first solo album of 1976[/quote] You are the first person on here apart from me to mention the genius of Blanton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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