Deltas or Deltalite II's

[JPJ]

Well for the first time ever a bit of SWR kit let me down tonight with a cone going in the oldest of my two Goliath 4 x 10's

As I'm about to embark on a solid stint of gigs over the next six weeks I need to rectify this quickly and will probably replace all four speakers. I have eminence deltas in my Schroeder-a-like cab which sound really nice so they'll be my first choice but what's the collective opinion on the Deltalite II's?

All advice greatly received!

[JTUK]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1223820' date='May 8 2011, 12:56 AM']Well for the first time ever a bit of SWR kit let me down tonight with a cone going in the oldest of my two Goliath 4 x 10's

As I'm about to embark on a solid stint of gigs over the next six weeks I need to rectify this quickly and will probably replace all four speakers. I have eminence deltas in my Schroeder-a-like cab which sound really nice so they'll be my first choice but what's the collective opinion on the Deltalite II's?

All advice greatly received![/quote]


I replaced a Goliath cab with delta 2510 11's and thought the sound lacked a bit of weight.
I think this may be a problem for me with NEO's anyway...they just don't sound the same..which is apparent in comparison, IMO, but maybe not if you haven't had the reference beforehand...ie, you recall how the PAs speakers sounded.

As far I know, SWR do not use defunct PAS..and you'll not be able to get cone kits in the U.K but I think you'll be hard to get the spec of the speakers they use now. They probably will not tell what 'bespoke' equivalent they are currently using.

You may be alright with deltas if you can tune the cab to accomodate them as others have said they are a good retro fit, to their ears. I've heard this said a few times and a mate swears by this convert. I remain unconvinced myself.

If it were me I be trying to get an original PAS from somewhere like then U.S.. assuming the other speakers are ok.

or bite the bullet and buy another Goliath.. and use as spares and sell on the cab itself. It may be cheaper that way as 4 deltas will cost near on £400 even at the cheapest prices..

[JPJ]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1223835' date='May 8 2011, 01:26 AM']I replaced a Goliath cab with delta 2510 11's and thought the sound lacked a bit of weight.
I think this may be a problem for me with NEO's anyway...they just don't sound the same..which is apparent in comparison, IMO, but maybe not if you haven't had the reference beforehand...ie, you recall how the PAs speakers sounded.

As far I know, SWR do not use defunct PAS..and you'll not be able to get cone kits in the U.K but I think you'll be hard to get the spec of the speakers they use now. They probably will not tell what 'bespoke' equivalent they are currently using.

You may be alright with deltas if you can tune the cab to accomodate them as others have said they are a good retro fit, to their ears. I've heard this said a few times and a mate swears by this convert. I remain unconvinced myself.

If it were me I be trying to get an original PAS from somewhere like then U.S.. assuming the other speakers are ok.

or bite the bullet and buy another Goliath.. and use as spares and sell on the cab itself. It may be cheaper that way as 4 deltas will cost near on £400 even at the cheapest prices..[/quote]

Thanks for that, more or less confirmed my thoughts/fears about the neos so it looks like Delta's it is. Just whipped the knackered cone this morning and it's completely fried and the cone won't move! It's next door neighbour is on the way out too as it's squeaking when moved so it looks like four new deltas it is!

Anybody got any tips about breaking new cones in?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1224066' date='May 8 2011, 07:45 AM']Thanks for that, more or less confirmed my thoughts/fears about the neos so it looks like Delta's it is.[/quote]Model them both in WinISD Alpha Pro, look at the maximum SPL chart, and you'll see the Delta is an also-ran. Even the Basslite S2010 beats it, let alone the 2510.

[hubrad]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1224066' date='May 8 2011, 12:45 PM']Thanks for that, more or less confirmed my thoughts/fears about the neos so it looks like Delta's it is. Just whipped the knackered cone this morning and it's completely fried and the cone won't move! It's next door neighbour is on the way out too as it's squeaking when moved so it looks like four new deltas it is!

Anybody got any tips about breaking new cones in?[/quote]
How about a solid stint of gigs over, say six weeks or so? Should do the trick!

[JTUK]

Just to clarify..this was the chassis I used and am talking about.

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/eminence_deltalite_ii_2510.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/eminence_deltalite_ii_2510.htm[/url]

[JPJ]

[quote name='hubrad' post='1224127' date='May 8 2011, 02:19 PM']How about a solid stint of gigs over, say six weeks or so? Should do the trick! [/quote]

[JPJ]

Well after listening to Bill's advice, I modelled the two speakers in WinISD using the actual dimensions of my Goliath cabinet. The SPL graphs are shown below with the red line representing the DeltaLite II's and the blue line representing the standard Delta:

[b]SPL Chart[/b]


[b]Max SPL[/b]


Based on this plot and an ageing back, I've decided to go with the Deltalites. I use two Goliath cabinets with the other cab still having the stock PAS speakers so I should get a really interesting 'real world' comparison between neo and non-neo speakers.

Fingers crossed they sound good

Edited May 9, 2011 by JPJ

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1224886' date='May 9 2011, 06:08 AM']I should get a really interesting 'real world' comparison between neo and non-neo speakers.[/quote]Aside from weight there is no difference between neo and non-neo drivers. There are differences between various drivers, but those differences are not the product of the magnet material.

[JPJ]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1225090' date='May 9 2011, 01:56 PM']Aside from weight there is no difference between neo and non-neo drivers. There are differences between various drivers, but those differences are not the product of the magnet material.[/quote]

Fair point

I think what I meant to say was the difference between the stock PAS speakers and the DeltaLiteII's

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1225198' date='May 9 2011, 10:30 AM']Fair point

I think what I meant to say was the difference between the stock PAS speakers and the DeltaLiteII's [/quote]That would probably be significant. The PAS being OEM are probably not high quality, and being ceramic are an old and probably obsolete design.

[Bernmeister]

I would be interested in knowing what the difference in sound is between the two cabs are once you've replaced the speakers JPJ.

As a fellow Swr cab users, just in case i ever needed to find some replacement speakers for my goliath juniors.

[JPJ]

Well thank to the folks at [url="http://www.lean-business.co.uk"]Lean Business[/url] four new Deltalite II's arrived at chez JPJ shortly after lunch on Tuesday (just 28 odd hours since placing the order!) and whilst I was able to fit them into the cab last night I wasn't able to fire her up until about an hour ago.

Setting the EQ flat on my amp with the Aural Enhancer at about 1:30pm I plugged in my Ray 5, again with the three band eq set flat. Now I should also mention that on removing the old speakers I noticed that the red wire had been disconnected from the horn . Initial thoughts were wow this is aggressive sounding until I remembered the horn was full on Nipping round the back (ooh err missus) a quick twiddle of the attenuator soon had the snarl under control and the sound became much more 'rounded'. Yes the Neos are definitely more middley than the rather aged old PAS drivers they've replaced, but OMG what an improvement in bottom end response

Bearing in mind that these drivers are, as you younger ones say, "box fresh" and that in my experience drivers mellow with use, I have great expectations for how this cab will sound in say six or seven gigs time. At the weekend I'll do a more in depth side-by-side test with my other PAS equipped Golly but first impressions are very favourable. As to the old chestnut of neos sounding lightweight, my initial tests suggest that they are behaving much like the SPL plot above and that rather than being lighter, they are actually far more authoritative especially in handling the low B.

At coppers short of £300 including delivery they weren't a cheap upgrade but if they behave as well in a real world gig then I'd be tempted to upgrade my other Golly to the same drivers as the weight saving (around 6.5kgs total) is a noticeable difference.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1228081' date='May 11 2011, 04:27 PM']At coppers short of £300 including delivery they weren't a cheap upgrade[/quote]If you plan to get more do so yesterday, that's a silly low price considering what's happened to the price of neo drivers in the last 6 weeks.

[BassBod]

Thanks for sharing the experience. My Goliath II rarely goes out these days, but its good to know there are replacements that sound good and weigh less!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1228213' date='May 11 2011, 11:01 PM']If you plan to get more do so yesterday, that's a silly low price considering what's happened to the price of neo drivers in the last 6 weeks.[/quote]


That does sound a very good price..

As for more low end... the Goliath with PAS never lacked low end, IME. Far from it.. especially the rear ported Goliath ll.

[Bernmeister]

Hi JPJ,
Thanks for sharing the info, as BassBod has said, its good to know that there's an option if any of the
drivers go in my golly juniors.

Thank goodness i'm only using 2x10's these days lol.

[warwickhunt]

That means I'm going to 'have to' pop over to yours sometime soon... the chance to A/B the same cab design but with Neo and non-Neo in each is just too tempting, though I accept that your non-Neo SWR might be on it's last legs as well!

[JPJ]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1229281' date='May 12 2011, 08:34 PM'] That means I'm going to 'have to' pop over to yours sometime soon... the chance to A/B the same cab design but with Neo and non-Neo in each is just too tempting, though I accept that your non-Neo SWR might be on it's last legs as well! [/quote]

I'll get the kettle on

By using my amp in stereo mode we can do a blind 'taste' test, can you tell the difference between neo and non-neo

[JTUK]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1229281' date='May 12 2011, 08:34 PM'] That means I'm going to 'have to' pop over to yours sometime soon... the chance to A/B the same cab design but with Neo and non-Neo in each is just too tempting, though I accept that your non-Neo SWR might be on it's last legs as well! [/quote]


The point about how long do speakers last is pertinent, IMV.

I have often rubbished Ampeg cabs..for example..as hired-in cabs get a solid beating and I've often thought they were crap when I have used them, but they may have a shelf life which we are less aware of and just literally degrade.

But... then the whole problem of replacement cones comes into play and old speakers just aren't that available..plus cab makers might not
be that forthcoming about exacty what their bespoke speakers are..or are very close to.
Swapping out a single cab speaker is one thing, but multiple chassis can be a real game of chance AND expensive.

I couldn't find PAS speakers for love nor money over here..the U.S said they could hardly get the cones either. And when I did evenetually send them off to be repaired the cone-repair told me I would be lucky to get 100w per speaker. This, on the face of it, was the deal breaker
but then who is to believe whose watts?

So..we don't know what the speaker is, we don't know whether they rate it properly and a cone repairer can't give you back that spec...so where do you go..?

This could affect..potentially..a lot of cabs when models move on.

It is good that some people can use programs to get a close match... but the problem remains on whether you have to swap out one or many chassis.

I am glad you got a result with the 2510's...but if you have quite a few spare PAS speakers that are ok...don't throw them away..you could save a good few people problems buy selling your spares..
As I said, I couldn't get PAS speakers for love nor money over here and they were decent in the cabs.
There may be better spec'd speakers out there and they may be NEO but those PAS speakers worked in the Golaith series, IMO.

Edited May 13, 2011 by JTUK

[JPJ]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1229647' date='May 13 2011, 09:15 AM']The point about how long do speakers last is pertinent, IMV.

I have often rubbished Ampeg cabs..for example..as hired-in cabs get a solid beating and I've often thought they were crap when I have used them, but they may have a shelf life which we are less aware of and just literally degrade.

But... then the whole problem of replacement cones comes into play and old speakers just aren't that available..plus cab makers might not
be that forthcoming about exacty what their bespoke speakers are..or are very close to.
Swapping out a single cab speaker is one thing, but multiple chassis can be a real game of chance AND expensive.

I couldn't find PAS speakers for love nor money over here..the U.S said they could hardly get the cones either. And when I did evenetually send them off to be repaired the cone-repair told me I would be lucky to get 100w per speaker. This, on the face of it, was the deal breaker
but then who is to believe whose watts?

So..we don't know what the speaker is, we don't know whether they rate it properly and a cone repairer can't give you back that spec...so where do you go..?

This could affect..potentially..a lot of cabs when models move on.

It is good that some people can use programs to get a close match... but the problem remains on whether you have to swap out one or many chassis.

I am glad you got a result with the 2510's...but if you have quite a few spare PAS speakers that are ok...don't throw them away..you could save a good few people problems buy selling your spares..
As I said, I couldn't get PAS speakers for love nor money over here and they were decent in the cabs.
There may be better spec'd speakers out there and they may be NEO but those PAS speakers worked in the Golaith series, IMO.[/quote]

This is exactly the dilemma I faced. Having previously tried and failed to find replacement PAS speakers for a Redhead combo, I knew that my chances of finding one or two replacements this time were limited in the extreme. Because speaker technology has moved on quite rapidly since the advent of Neo magnets as a speaker component, simply replacing two cones wasn't really a viable option either. I've used WinISD in the past to model home-built speaker cabinets and therefore had a degree of confidence that the real world outcome would be somewhere near the simulation, but the advice of Bill was also a guiding factor.

The PAS cones in my other Golly are much newer (the cones that went came from a transitional period Golly II/III) and slightly higher rated. They are showing no signs of degredation whereas in hindsight, the speakers that failed seemed to be moving much further than the newer cones! That said, the two now spare working PAS speakers have been safely boxed up and stored away just in case (as have the knackered two as I just couldnt bring myself to bin them ) If the neo equipped cabinet performs as well on stage as it did in the kitchen, then the my other cabinet will probably get the same upgrade simply for peace of mind and to ease the strain on my back Obviously, if I go down that route then all six working PAS speakers would become surplus to requirements and would be sold to offset the investment in new cones.

By the way, I agree that the PAS speakers in a Golly work and do not lack low end, however, the new cones seems to give a 'fuller' bottom end without getting boomy, if that makes any sense?

After all the rush, our gig tonight has been cancelled so I wont get to try them in anger until next weekend, but I'll report back here once I do. Finally, and once again, thanks to all those who've commented or pm'd with advice, just goes to show what a great community we have here.

[JPJ]

[b][u]Field Testing Report #1[/u][/b]
Venue = small/medium sized pub with a good shaped room.
Setup location = rig about four feet off the back wall of the room, but only about a foot off the side wall.
Amp = my trusty SWR SM1500, eq flat with the exception of big bass cut (more of this later).
Bass = Musicman Stingray V, eq flat.
Band = 5 piece southern rock band, twin guitars (Jeff Beck telecaster through 100w Marshall DSL + PRS/Yamaha SG through 100w Marshall TSL), loud drummer with large kit, vocals.

To test the new cones, I stacked my speakers with the neo equipped cabinet on top. I share the same side of the stage as the telecaster equipped guitarist and whether its his guitar or his amp settings, he produces a lot of bass! Suffice to say that at the stage volumes we play at (ask Warwickhunt, but remember to speak up as I think we damaged his delicate hearing ), our sound guy has problems controlling the bottom end hence the big bass cut on the low end of my amp The proximity of the side wall to my rig probably also contributed to the overall bassiness of the sound, but hey thats pub rock!

First impressions are very favourable. The neos are much smoother than the stock PAS speakers giving a warmer feel to the tone (something I like). They also seemed to have a much more even response across the fretboard with no notes 'disappearing'. The big plus was in the real low end stuff (on the B string) where the full character of the note came through, so much so that normal open E's became played as a fretted E on the B as the night progressed. Another plus was the clarity with which each note comes through, octave pairs ring out and its worth putting all the little fills in now as you can hear each and every note clearly.

All in all, for the first time out in anger, I'm very pleased with the results. Alone, the cab sounds slightly more nasal or Ampeg sounding than my non-neo equipped cabinet but in the band situation, it seemed to sit in the mix very nicely. My back really appreciated the weight saving during the load in/out too

Field Test #2 will be next Friday at a bike rally. Marquee's in fields can, in my experience, be a nightmare for bass so I'm looking forward to winding my amp up and driving the new cones a little harder than I had to on Saturday night.

[JTUK]

wow... SM1500 is a lot of amp.

I use the SM400 and wouldn't want to use anymore to drive up the band volume. I can't use the bass anymore than 12 o'clock as that was an idiosyncrasy with that model and I get tons of bass from my 2 112's.

In retrospect the 2x112 don't quite make the sound of the SWR115 and 210 and this has prompted me to going back to that config but with Aguilar cabs as I think they make them better than the newer SWR..IMO.

I may just decide on 2x210 over a 115 and 210..but only for carry..I think the sound needs that heavy 115

The Goliath ll's were great though with PAS so if you think they are better with NEO delta's then I am glad that worked.
I thought the Goli ll could be a bit nasally if you were too close, IIRC.

I would still love a SWR610 though... and if it came with PAS that would suit me fine.

So far, I am the only slightly negative voice I know about this particular conversion and it relates entirely to the sound although I am aware of NEO and non NEO arguments.

It is all subjective.

[JPJ]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1241460' date='May 23 2011, 12:31 PM']wow... SM1500 is a lot of amp.[/quote]

Yep

[quote name='JTUK' post='1241460' date='May 23 2011, 12:31 PM']I use the SM400 and wouldn't want to use anymore to drive up the band volume. I can't use the bass anymore than 12 o'clock as that was an idiosyncrasy with that model and I get tons of bass from my 2 112's.[/quote]

I know what you mean. The Bass control on the SM1500 is voiced at 70Hz with +/-15dB of control. I normally run this at the twelve o'clock 'flat' position but was running nearer to 9 o'clock on Sat night.

[quote name='JTUK' post='1241460' date='May 23 2011, 12:31 PM']I would still love a SWR610 though... and if it came with PAS that would suit me fine.[/quote]

Believe me, I've been tempted by a couple of these in the past. Would love to try one under the SM1500 in a gig situation.

[quote name='JTUK' post='1241460' date='May 23 2011, 12:31 PM']So far, I am the only slightly negative voice I know about this particular conversion and it relates entirely to the sound although I am aware of NEO and non NEO arguments.

It is all subjective.[/quote]

It is indeed subjective, and its even harder to describe. There are differences for sure, but so far the beefed up bottom end and the weight saving means I'm struggling to find a downside to the conversion.

[JTUK]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1241531' date='May 23 2011, 01:12 PM']Yep


Believe me, I've been tempted by a couple of these in the past. Would love to try one under the SM1500 in a gig situation.[/quote]

One..?? try two..!!!

That would be my large stage festival rig
I'd consider the SM900 as a compromise and run it with my 210 and (maybe) 115 as my mini stage rig

Hell of a lot of amps for the money they are going for SH..IMO.
I think a valve stage pre is almost compulsory and this guys pretty much started this trend, IIRC..

Try and I might, I just can't sell my SM400. it would a be such a crime.