Ian2k Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 My first bass was a Yamaha RBX 260, which I still have. I was perfectly happy with it until my playing progressed to the point where I realised that it was hampering my playing as I was having to stop it neck diving. I must have been unconsciously doing it for quite some time before I realised the problem. It became very apparent after I changed my playing postition slightly and got a new stap that was non-grippy. I know a grippy strap can mitigate to a certain extent, but it's not really ideal as with that my shirt moves instead. Some people seem to manage fine with neck heavy instruments, but unfortunately I'm not one of them. I spoke to one of the Yamaha reps at a recent show, and my understanding from that conversation is that the designs are done for the higher spec. instruments, and then when they come to make the cheaper instruments they use different, lighter, wood, hence the neck dive. I know wood is a natural product and does vary, but I keep coming back to the conclusion that it amounts to poor design. I measured the RBX and it needed a balance of 1 and 1/2 lbs to stop the dive, which I think is quite a lot. I considered drilling out part of the body and putting in lead plugs, but don't know what that would do to the sound. Still haven't abandoned that idea completely, but I'll probably use the neck as the basis for a project at some point. In desperation I bought a Hohner "The Jack", untried, from a well known auction site ... (that's another story all in itself). It's headless, so no neck dive, but a much chunkier neck, which I'm not very keen on, so the search for my perfect bass is on, hampered by the fact that the RBX that I learnt on was 24 fret, and so I do use right up to fret 24. (The Hohner is 24 fret too). So, I thought it would be interesting to hear your experiences of neck dive, or not. And any recommendations for 24 fret, thin necked, non neck divers! VERDICT: Yahama RBX 260 - guilty Hohner "The Jack" - innocent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 the weight of the wood is less important than the position of the strap buttons and length of the upper horn, and thus the centre of gravity. guitars can and should imo be light as a (really heavy) feather. look for something with the strap button positioned at at least the 12th fret. light tuners (hipshot ultralites or similar) and an offset lower bout. the lower bout or 'hip' should be extended further toward the bridge end than the upper bout, which can also improve high fret access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martthebass Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Like you I don't have a great deal of love for basses with neck dive. At the minute the 2 Rays I have certainly aren't lightweights, the 4 stringer is about 9.5lb and the 5 a bit over 10, however the weight is in the body on both so they balance well. Due to this both are tolerable on gigs even tho I'm a lightweight mid 5 footer. I've had a couple of lightweight basses (7lb ish) an Overwater Perception and an Epi EBO. Due to the small light bodies on both they both suffered with neck dive and both ended up going. The only lightweight bass I've owned (and still own) that doesn't suffer from neck dive is my Status. Because of this it gets all the longer set gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMT3781 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 worst i had for it was a 5 string sandberg p bass... every time i let go, the headstock was round my ankles lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 The Viola suffers from that so I bought a long strap and fixed it (acoustic guitar style) to the neck. Job done no more neck dive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='martthebass' post='1139115' date='Feb 23 2011, 08:33 PM']Like you I don't have a great deal of love for basses with neck dive. At the minute the 2 Rays I have certainly aren't lightweights, the 4 stringer is about 9.5lb and the 5 a bit over 10, however the weight is in the body on both so they balance well. Due to this both are tolerable on gigs even tho I'm a lightweight mid 5 footer. I've had a couple of lightweight basses (7lb ish) an Overwater Perception and an Epi EBO. Due to the small light bodies on both they both suffered with neck dive and both ended up going. The only lightweight bass I've owned (and still own) that doesn't suffer from neck dive is my Status. Because of this it gets all the longer set gigs.[/quote] i repeat. the weight of the body is less effective than the actual design of the bass. i have a 5lb bass that balances perfectly. only 32" but 26 frets so not a short neck. the centre of gravity is the be all and end all. also helps if the right hand button isn't in the centre of the bass but slightly higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I hate neck dive with a passion. I don't care how nice a bass sounds, if it dives then it goes. Yamaha Attitude Mk1 was bad, Fender Jazz was bad. My Statii have all been good, my Modulus VJ is great. I have a Status Streamline on order - narrow string spacing, headless. That won't dive at all. So if you want the ultimate non-dive - go headless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) looking at the rbx the bass horn is looking heavy on its own which is pushing the weight forward, while the bridge end is totally round, making the trble side significantly smaller than the bass side. the treble side is where the counter balance exists, or not as the case may be. [url="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.acguitars.co.uk/gfxs/gallery/img_4507.jpg&imgrefurl=http://finnbass.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D6218&usg=__ZrpFlLo1u5BUTPiuH2CATx8DEU8=&h=377&w=800&sz=23&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=8REzRk2GkPoeKM:&tbnh=140&tbnw=295&ei=6XJlTajCKtO7hAer18TpBQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dacg%2Bbass%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox%26biw%3D1007%26bih%3D671%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=256&vpy=346&dur=4765&hovh=154&hovw=327&tx=103&ty=84&oei=6XJlTajCKtO7hAer18TpBQ&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0"]this is how a bass with no dive should look.[/url] generally, not that all basses should look the same. Edited February 23, 2011 by lettsguitars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Vincent Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 No problems with Fenders,but my Tokai Thunderbird seems to have elastic between the headstock and the floor.Consequently it doesn't get a lot of use.Looks nice though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian2k Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='martthebass' post='1139115' date='Feb 23 2011, 08:33 PM']Like you I don't have a great deal of love for basses with neck dive. At the minute the 2 Rays I have certainly aren't lightweights, the 4 stringer is about 9.5lb and the 5 a bit over 10, however the weight is in the body on both so they balance well. Due to this both are tolerable on gigs even tho I'm a lightweight mid 5 footer. I've had a couple of lightweight basses (7lb ish) an Overwater Perception and an Epi EBO. Due to the small light bodies on both they both suffered with neck dive and both ended up going. The only lightweight bass I've owned (and still own) that doesn't suffer from neck dive is my Status. Because of this it gets all the longer set gigs.[/quote] The Status is headless I belive? What's the thickness of the neck like - I don't know how to technically describe it, but what I'm used to and like with the RBX is the neck thinness, so for example at fret 1, from fretboard to the back of the neck is around 2cm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Ian2k' post='1139175' date='Feb 23 2011, 09:06 PM']The Status is headless I belive? What's the thickness of the neck like - I don't know how to technically describe it, but what I'm used to and like with the RBX is the neck thinness, so for example at fret 1, from fretboard to the back of the neck is around 2cm.[/quote] warwick have similar neck thickness. check out their web site for neck dimensions. quite interesting if you're as sad as me. although i have heard someone complain about warwicks diving. Edited February 23, 2011 by lettsguitars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian2k Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='Blademan_98' post='1139123' date='Feb 23 2011, 08:38 PM']The Viola suffers from that so I bought a long strap and fixed it (acoustic guitar style) to the neck. Job done no more neck dive! [/quote] That's interesting, I had thought about that, but have never seen it done, and I was worried whether that would put a strain on the neck joint that it wasn't designed for. Presumably you've not had any indications of any problems like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='Ian2k' post='1139177' date='Feb 23 2011, 09:09 PM']That's interesting, I had thought about that, but have never seen it done, and I was worried whether that would put a strain on the neck joint that it wasn't designed for. Presumably you've not had any indications of any problems like that?[/quote] be carefull there. dont do go screwing through into the truss channel. common sense but you never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian2k Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='lettsguitars' post='1139152' date='Feb 23 2011, 08:49 PM']looking at the rbx the bass horn is looking heavy on its own which is pushing the weight forward, while the bridge end is totally round, making the trble side significantly smaller than the bass side. the treble side is where the counter balance exists, or not as the case may be. [url="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.acguitars.co.uk/gfxs/gallery/img_4507.jpg&imgrefurl=http://finnbass.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D6218&usg=__ZrpFlLo1u5BUTPiuH2CATx8DEU8=&h=377&w=800&sz=23&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=8REzRk2GkPoeKM:&tbnh=140&tbnw=295&ei=6XJlTajCKtO7hAer18TpBQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dacg%2Bbass%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox%26biw%3D1007%26bih%3D671%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=256&vpy=346&dur=4765&hovh=154&hovw=327&tx=103&ty=84&oei=6XJlTajCKtO7hAer18TpBQ&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0"]this is how a bass with no dive should look.[/url] generally, not that all basses should look the same.[/quote] Thanks. I'm not sure I quite understand. The RBX bass horn reaches to around the 12th fret, and the lower bout does extend back further. What I thought was the case was the counter balance was the going to basically be the bridge end of the bass, but do I understand you correctly that it's really treble side rather than what's towards the bridge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian2k Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='fretmeister' post='1139146' date='Feb 23 2011, 08:46 PM']I hate neck dive with a passion. I don't care how nice a bass sounds, if it dives then it goes. Yamaha Attitude Mk1 was bad, Fender Jazz was bad. My Statii have all been good, my Modulus VJ is great. I have a Status Streamline on order - narrow string spacing, headless. That won't dive at all. So if you want the ultimate non-dive - go headless.[/quote] I'd also been thinking that that would be the way to go, the Hohner started me off thinking about that solution. I'm interested in what lettsguitars is saying too, hopefully it'll help me to understand where the problem actually lies within a design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian2k Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='lettsguitars' post='1139176' date='Feb 23 2011, 09:09 PM']warwick have similar neck thickness. check out their web site for neck dimensions. quite interesting if you're as sad as me. although i have heard someone complain about warwicks diving.[/quote] Thanks, I'll head over there and have a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Ian2k' post='1139196' date='Feb 23 2011, 09:15 PM']Thanks. I'm not sure I quite understand. The RBX bass horn reaches to around the 12th fret, and the lower bout does extend back further. What I thought was the case was the counter balance was the going to basically be the bridge end of the bass, but do I understand you correctly that it's really treble side rather than what's towards the bridge?[/quote] the [url="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://hcms.hertford.ox.ac.uk/files/rbx374%2520(small).jpg&imgrefurl=http://pineapster.com/forums/topics/bass_for_tradesale_telecaster_or_similar_wanted&usg=__cQ14bx3Z5EVaeIZ1lvOtvGTxL6g=&h=413&w=550&sz=206&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=uGnarJH7VXGnTM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=168&ei=MntlTcbaBtCZhQfkttH2BQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drbx%2Bbass%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox%26biw%3D1007%26bih%3D671%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=157&oei=MntlTcbaBtCZhQfkttH2BQ&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0&tx=245&ty=44"]rbx[/url] has rounded hips as opposed to an 'extended' lower bout which is important imo. Edited February 23, 2011 by lettsguitars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomb Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 what is neck dive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='tomb' post='1139214' date='Feb 23 2011, 09:30 PM']what is neck dive?[/quote] it's what old rockers get from all that headbangin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amnesia Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 My experiences... Warwick Streamer LX4 - perfect balance Warwick Streamer Stage I - perfect balance Warwick Thumb 5 bolt-on - terrible balance, massively head heavy and a heavy instrument also if I recall. Sold because of this (and the move to 5 strings didn't suit me) Gibson Thunderbird - famously head heavy but almost managable with a decent strap. It does depend on the shirt I wear though. I put up with it because it plays brilliantly, sounds immense and looks ace too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amnesia Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='lettsguitars' post='1139219' date='Feb 23 2011, 09:32 PM']it's what old rockers get from all that headbangin![/quote] Touche. Do you also look like a turtle? The slightly more sensible answer (sorry) is that the balance of the instrument (when on the strap) is off so it pulls the headstock towards the floor. Can make instruments very difficult to play as you have to support some of the weight with you fretting hand. Edited February 23, 2011 by amnesia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian2k Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='lettsguitars' post='1139212' date='Feb 23 2011, 09:26 PM']the [url="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://hcms.hertford.ox.ac.uk/files/rbx374%2520(small).jpg&imgrefurl=http://pineapster.com/forums/topics/bass_for_tradesale_telecaster_or_similar_wanted&usg=__cQ14bx3Z5EVaeIZ1lvOtvGTxL6g=&h=413&w=550&sz=206&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=uGnarJH7VXGnTM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=168&ei=MntlTcbaBtCZhQfkttH2BQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drbx%2Bbass%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox%26biw%3D1007%26bih%3D671%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=157&oei=MntlTcbaBtCZhQfkttH2BQ&page=1&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0&tx=245&ty=44"]rbx[/url] has rounded hips as opposed to an 'extended' lower bout which is important imo.[/quote] Ah, thanks for the clarification, I'd misunderstood. Yes that makes perfect sense to me, it's not something I'd considered before. Very useful bit of info., thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martthebass Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='lettsguitars' post='1139128' date='Feb 23 2011, 08:40 PM']i repeat. the weight of the body is less effective than the actual design of the bass. i have a 5lb bass that balances perfectly. only 32" but 26 frets so not a short neck. the centre of gravity is the be all and end all. also helps if the right hand button isn't in the centre of the bass but slightly higher.[/quote] Not necessarily disagreeing with you but I once owned a Stingray on the lighter side of typical (about 8.5lbs) and that didn't balance as well as my current Ray4. As far as could tell the pin positions were exactly the same. Obviously the neck length, and body weight have some effect on the cog. On your 5lb special I guess you're using lightweight neck wood and tuners to ensure good balance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martthebass Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 [quote name='Ian2k' post='1139175' date='Feb 23 2011, 09:06 PM']The Status is headless I belive? What's the thickness of the neck like - I don't know how to technically describe it, but what I'm used to and like with the RBX is the neck thinness, so for example at fret 1, from fretboard to the back of the neck is around 2cm.[/quote] The streamline is headless yes. Neck profile....feels similar to a modern USA precision to me, quite slim front to back but the wider fretboard width of about 1.6" compared to 1.5" on a Jazz. I find it very playable and I almost exclusively played a Jazz for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Burrito Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I used to play a lot of Epiphones that famously suffer from neck dive. I can honestly say it was never something that bothered me. Then again my style doesn't include a lot of punching my left fist in the air so it shouldn't cause me too many problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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