thinman Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Idle question really but why is the intonation adjustment required? As I understand it the 12th fret is halfway between the nut and bridge so why are the saddle alignments never in a line parallel with the frets when a guitar is correctly adjusted with the lower (fatter) strings being longer than the higher (thinner) ones? Is it something to do with the way a string is stretched when fretted such that the E, say, goes sharper due to it being thicker and less stretchy than the G when fretted so it has to be longer to compensate or is there something else going on here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) it's the thickness of the strings, i think Edited January 21, 2008 by ahpook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 This doesn't really answer your question, but the whole tuning thing is a massive compromise and the adjustable bridge pieces allow for some adjustment to help. [url="http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm"]Buzz Feiten Tuning[/url] [url="http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/intonation-faq.txt"]Intonation Faqs[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJA Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 it's because of the varying thickness of the strings- the thicker strings aren't as flexible, so the node point is a bit further from the saddle, so an E string saddle has to be backed away from the nut to intonate correctly, further from where the G saddle is. note that when using strings with tapered windings, (ie. the string diameter steps down over the saddle), or contact-core strings (where only the core itself sits on the saddle, eg. Rotosound piano string design RS99), the saddles are more in line- because the heavy strings are as flexible at the contact point as the lighter strings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassmandan Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 it's all to do with an 'end correction' of 0.6 x diameter....... .... i think...... no, really! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinman Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 OK, Thanks for clearing that up. A second question then.... When I've set intonation I've simply used a tuner to determine that the open tuning and 12th fret are the same (but an octave aprt of course!). However, I also read that it's set by ensuring the harmonic at the 12th is the same as the note at the 12th when fretted and I've read that using a tuner to do this is advised. Does it make any difference how it's done and am I doing wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 [quote name='thinman' post='131462' date='Jan 31 2008, 06:39 PM']OK, Thanks for clearing that up. A second question then.... When I've set intonation I've simply used a tuner to determine that the open tuning and 12th fret are the same (but an octave aprt of course!). However, I also read that it's set by ensuring the harmonic at the 12th is the same as the note at the 12th when fretted and I've read that using a tuner to do this is advised. Does it make any difference how it's done and am I doing wrong?[/quote] When you've SET the intonation then you can tune however you like to whatever note you like, though 12th fret harmonic is a good option. Checking fretted against harmonic will show you whether your intonation is correct allowing you to adjust the string length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Another good question, i tend to stay below the 12th fret mainly so would it be better to set intonation at the 5 or 7th frets as you spend more time there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinman Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 [quote name='Muppet' post='131469' date='Jan 31 2008, 06:56 PM']When you've SET the intonation then you can tune however you like to whatever note you like, though 12th fret harmonic is a good option. Checking fretted against harmonic will show you whether your intonation is correct allowing you to adjust the string length.[/quote] Now I am confused, or dim, or both.... 12th fret is an octave higher than open when correctly intonated? Yes? No? So, can tuning the 12th fret harmonic to 12th fretted result in that note not being an octave higher than open? I'd always thought, maybe incorrectly, that a correctly intonated string (intonated to the 12th) will be exactly an octave higher at the 12th (fretted) than its open note. I'm getting the vibes that that may not be the case but can't quite see why. Interesting point about intonating around 5th or 7th fret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Burpster Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 `I think you are getting a bit confused..... if the fretted 12 is 1 Octave higher than the open string, the Harmonic at the 12th should be 1 octave higher (exactly) than the open string if the setup is correct. You can, and should be able to get this with a bit of patience. Once the Harmonic is exactly the same as the fretted 12th then you can tune by that method (my preffered now) Variation in the fretted 12th tone can be caused by your fretting technique! I now tune across the neck open and then set (intonate) the harmonic at the 12th fret. You should then find that the fretted 12th is pretty close. A good solid bridge and decent strings and they will be both come together. +or- <1 cent is acceptible. Occasionallly strings will have to bed in a little (loose thier initial strech) before they match perfectly.... IME of course. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 [quote name='thinman' post='132106' date='Feb 1 2008, 06:06 PM']So, can tuning the 12th fret harmonic to 12th fretted result in that note not being an octave higher than open?[/quote] Yes if your intonation is incorrect. If you CAN tune 12th fret harmonic to 12 fretted then all that means is that your intonation is correct. If there IS a difference then the only way to fix it is by adjusting string length, not by tuning to a note. Once you've got those two reading the same (regardless of what NOTE you are using to tune to) then you can use the 12th fret harmonic to tune to your electronic tuner safe in the knowledge that the open string, the 12th fretted AND the harmonic are all in tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinman Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 [quote name='Muppet' post='132183' date='Feb 1 2008, 08:23 PM']Yes if your intonation is incorrect. If you CAN tune 12th fret harmonic to 12 fretted then all that means is that your intonation is correct. If there IS a difference then the only way to fix it is by adjusting string length, not by tuning to a note. Once you've got those two reading the same (regardless of what NOTE you are using to tune to) then you can use the 12th fret harmonic to tune to your electronic tuner safe in the knowledge that the open string, the 12th fretted AND the harmonic are all in tune.[/quote] Thanks chaps - I think I had the idea - the different ways of explaining and approach initially rang a few bells in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Tuning tip - If using an electronic tuner you'll generally get a better signal if you pluck the 12th fret harmonic, the tuner will read it better and for longer than an open string plucked especially if you are down tuning or using a low B 5 string etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Chaps, what's the craic if my open, fretted 12th and 12th harmonic are all sweet, but then some frets around the 7th are out? i've Always found myself having to tweek the tuning when playing in B... i'm still adjusting (slowly - tiny tweeks every other day) everything on my new bass so haven't quite settled on saddle height and neck relief so i guess these may change - but when i finally do find the right balance, can you offer any other general rules of thumb for intonation other than the open & 12th fretted & harmonic? cheers, sparky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 [quote name='Sparky' post='134111' date='Feb 5 2008, 09:20 AM']Chaps, what's the craic if my open, fretted 12th and 12th harmonic are all sweet, but then some frets around the 7th are out? i've Always found myself having to tweek the tuning when playing in B... i'm still adjusting (slowly - tiny tweeks every other day) everything on my new bass so haven't quite settled on saddle height and neck relief so i guess these may change - but when i finally do find the right balance, can you offer any other general rules of thumb for intonation other than the open & 12th fretted & harmonic? cheers, sparky.[/quote] Dunno about the 7th issue, but... It is possible to harmonically tune at the 5th fret, but it only works well on fresh/bright strings. The sustain is better at the 12th position. With regard to intonation, I use the fretted 12th vs harmonic (above) 12th fret method. THEN use fretted 19th vs harmonic (above) 19th fret. This helps to make the intonation better still. Do go bake and check that the intonation at 12th is still right. This method is a good idea for frequent visitors to the dusty end of the fretboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.gif.9ad672bb8b84505709f76b39c8c256ec.gif)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.