KevB Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) My take on the whole thing was that Turner seems to have very convincing provenance that what he has sitting in his studio is a genuine Ritter and if pushed I'm sure Ritter himself would happily confirm that. It all seems to hinge on the serial number. The one Turner has and the one in the music shop which is almost identical share the same serial number apparently. I say 'apparently' as the only evidence of this is supposedly someone made a quick visual check on the one being sold, I never actually saw a photo of the serial number on the 'fake' anywhere in the thread. However if we take on trust the two instruments do share the same SN then either something's gone wrong with the numbering system at Ritter or the one sold is dodgy. The music shop haven't done themselves any favours by selling it on pretty quickly after being contacted and warned that there could be some doubt over its authenticity. I'm not sure about the market for knock-off high end intruments. Yes, there could potentially be a big mark up on each individual fake but it's a very niche market and in the internet age a higher risk of being found out as well. Looks like the thread's been closed by the admin Turner now! Edited January 10, 2011 by KevB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john turner Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Chris2112' post='1084297' date='Jan 10 2011, 10:54 AM']Yes, the thread is standard TB fare. The "inside types" remain cryptic, the vigilante martyr types reamin over the top in their "I will fight to the death to see justice done" stance and John Turner looks like a mug because of the whole sorry situation. At the moment, it's all a bit strange because Jens Ritter doesn't seem to have stated either way that the bass is real or fake. For all we know, JT could be holding the fake as the other bass looks better than his if I'm honest! If it's a mistake in the serial numbering of basses I wouldn't be surprised.[/quote] seeing as i received the bass directly from jens at the namm show in 2005, i seriously doubt that. also, a quick visit to jens' site proves not only who is the owner of 443 but also the nature of the instrument (which is different, subtly, from the one at gc). and as far as the gc bass looking better than mine, well i guess that's subjective, but the back of the neck of the gc bass doesn't look nearly as nice as mine, and i like the darker pickup covers on mine, but to be honest, the differences between the two are pretty minimal. like microscopic. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 And therein lies the danger John. Like you, I would take one look at that "fake" and think it was a real Ritter, and a particularly nice one at that, with none of the over the top excess that spoils some of Ritter's other instruments. I can see why someone would be taken in by it. Hopefully Jens will chime in soon and clarify whether or not he did indeed make the bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) I just went over to the TradeTang website mentioned in that thread, and looked up bass guitars. Number one at the top of the list is a Ric copy with Rikenbacker made in usa on the headstock. Shameless lol!! [url="http://www.tradetang.com/wholesale+rickenbacker_c220505.html"]TraadeTang chinese guitar making - copying place[/url] Edited January 10, 2011 by daz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlat Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Chris2112' post='1084590' date='Jan 10 2011, 06:18 PM']And therein lies the danger John. Like you, I would take one look at that "fake" and think it was a real Ritter, and a particularly nice one at that, with none of the over the top excess that spoils some of Ritter's other instruments. I can see why someone would be taken in by it. Hopefully Jens will chime in soon and clarify whether or not he did indeed make the bass.[/quote] Jens did reply to the TBer who originally spotted the "fake" Ritter at GC and his email was posted on TB. TBH if you've ever had dealings with Jens (and I have), that email was 100% Jens. Here is an email I got from Jen's a few years ago when I pointed out that someone was copying one of his basses as a "tribute" [quote name='Jens Ritter']Wow Mark! That's strange! Thanks for Info! What should I do? I think he makes it for himself, right? I may just leave it like this. If he starts selling it, I need to intervene....[/quote] That's pretty much the way Jens is by email. I think there is very little chance that the "fake" is anything but a visually accurate copy based on John's conversations with Jens and the email from Jens on the topic. As for John looking like a "mug", I really don't see it myself. He has no control over this situation and has come off looking pretty reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tino Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Russ' post='1083812' date='Jan 10 2011, 12:47 AM']I've been in the same room as a well-known British luthier while he worked on making a very convincing fake late-50s Strat that a music shop owner that he was in cahoots with was intending to sell as genuine. And no, I'm not naming names. Just saying, you don't just get counterfeiters in China. [/quote] I have most of my 50's & 60's Fenders copied faithfully by a very experienced luthier,I do not do it to deceive ..I do it because I cannot justify the ludicrous cost of the original vintage item in a fine condition. I also have additional marks added,parts altered or the model name altered to show they are copies so I personally will never try to sell them on as original.....that and that they are far to perfect... I have originals but they are in the main refinished or in extremely poor condition. Most Luthiers when pressed for a quid will undertake copies and lets face it the parts to make almost every conceivable cash cow are readily available from the states 65 Jag original but refinished 51 Esquire Modified model to Esquiresque,maker added to rear of headstock and,altered bridge to a Callaham the rest is 100% spot on My 2 favourite guitars ...but I cannot justify ,let alone find a real 51 Esquire...so the copy suits my needs....You all know they are copies or refins Just like I do. Copies are fine so long as we accept them for what they are and dont try to deceive others for gain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Mark Latimour' post='1084599' date='Jan 10 2011, 06:26 PM']As for John looking like a "mug", I really don't see it myself. He has no control over this situation and has come off looking pretty reasonable.[/quote] Mark, such a situation would be enough to make a mug of anyone, but especially so in the case when something extremely expensive which you own and initially thought was unique turns out to have an extremely convincing copy made of it. Someone has went to great effort here and has left John looking like a mug. It's definitely a proper mugging off, and would make a mug of the best men. Especially when it's out of your hands; as we see the bass has been sold and may never resurface! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tino Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='daz' post='1084594' date='Jan 10 2011, 06:22 PM']I just went over to the TradeTang website mentioned in that thread, and looked up bass guitars. Number one at the top of the list is a Ric copy with Rikenbacker made in usa on the headstock. Shameless lol!! [url="http://www.tradetang.com/wholesale+rickenbacker_c220505.html"]TraadeTang chinese guitar making - copying place[/url][/quote] Dont even bother with them UK border control possibly confiscate somewhere in the region of 95% of all their shipments to individuals, HOW DO I KNOW THIS We are contracted for the final destruction and incineration of these and other seized goods,UGGS, REEBOK,TOYS,PERFUME,DVDs etc etc every week container loads And Cannabis by the van load.........And its all watched over by uniformed gaurds so DONT ASK!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Glad to hear someone is burning all that crap up Tino! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlat Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Chris2112' post='1084607' date='Jan 10 2011, 06:37 PM']Mark, such a situation would be enough to make a mug of anyone, but especially so in the case when something extremely expensive which you own and initially thought was unique turns out to have an extremely convincing copy made of it. Someone has went to great effort here and has left John looking like a mug. It's definitely a proper mugging off, and would make a mug of the best men. Especially when it's out of your hands; as we see the bass has been sold and may never resurface![/quote] Can't say I agree with you, but that's a long way to go to make a fairly inane point! Edited January 10, 2011 by Mark Latimour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Mark Latimour' post='1084619' date='Jan 10 2011, 06:46 PM']Can't say I agree with you, but that's a long way to go to make a fairly inane point! [/quote] Why not be verbose when such wordiness is only a few keystrokes away! Or to put a more Northern spin on things, you could say John has had his pants pulled down by this whole affair! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Wouldn't it be something if Ritter had all their basses made in China and this was somebody doing a bit of moonlighting? Obviously they don't and are all hand made in Germany. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='tino' post='1084613' date='Jan 10 2011, 06:42 PM']Dont even bother with them UK border control possibly confiscate somewhere in the region of 95% of all their shipments to individuals, HOW DO I KNOW THIS We are contracted for the final destruction and incineration of these and other seized goods,UGGS, REEBOK,TOYS,PERFUME,DVDs etc etc every week container loads And Cannabis by the van load.........And its all watched over by uniformed gaurds so DONT ASK!!![/quote] If i was going to venture so far, id ask them to put some innane name on the headstock (Tokai seems to be a favourite) and get them to send the Rickenbacker plates via another post. Im sure that must be what happens anyway [b]Tino[/b] Anyway never mind all that. Can i ask what that [i]great[/i] looking [i]51 Esquire Modified model to Esquiresque [/i] is? It looks fantastic Edited January 10, 2011 by daz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tino Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='daz' post='1084641' date='Jan 10 2011, 07:05 PM']If i was going to venture so far, id ask them to put some innane name on the headstock (Tokai seems to be a favourite) and get them to send the Rickenbacker plates via another post. Im sure that must be what happens anyway [b]Tino[/b] Anyway never mind all that. Can i ask what that [i]great[/i] looking [i]51 Esquire Modified model to Esquiresque [/i] is? It looks fantastic[/quote] The Esquiresque was built for me by local Bass Player & Luthier Martin Clark,for over 30 years I had been looking for a 51 and although in the 70s they were there to be bought I always found another use for the money. For some 10 or more years I had a 52 neck that had been slaughtered a pair of 52/53 pickups from a caster??? and volume & tone pots from 54 and I ebayed ( sold out of auction)these....the funds realised paid for this to be built,the purchase of a 1943 Gretsch Hawaiin slide guitar from the states and theres a few bob left. So if your in the market for a handbuilt bass ,,,,,built by a great fella and damned good bass player give Martin a call....tell him I said hello I will hopefully be commissioning a telecaster bass to match the Esquiresque fairly soon ,if only the Gibsons would start selling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlat Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Chris2112' post='1084628' date='Jan 10 2011, 06:52 PM']\Or to put a more Northern spin on things, you could say John has had his pants pulled down by this whole affair![/quote] You could say that, but then it would just read like you were overly fixated by John's extended range instrument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john turner Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 as if i didn't feel violated enough already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='john turner' post='1084744' date='Jan 10 2011, 08:01 PM'] as if i didn't feel violated enough already. [/quote]Hurrah! Hello John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john turner Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) cheers fellas . just trying to keep a right-side-up attitude about this whole thing. gotta admit the whole situation makes me feel sorta slimy. edit : heh just realized i'm the l33t member here! that's pretty hawt. Edited January 10, 2011 by john turner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I'd like to see somene try and copy the Conklin double neck! I suspect Bill Conklin used a winch when he was building that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john turner Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Chris2112' post='1084794' date='Jan 10 2011, 03:29 PM']I'd like to see somene try and copy the Conklin double neck![/quote] normally i might agree with you, but lately i hope i can be excused in hoping that nobody tries. that'd be all i need Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='john turner' post='1084846' date='Jan 10 2011, 09:08 PM']normally i might agree with you, but lately i hope i can be excused in hoping that nobody tries. that'd be all i need [/quote] You'd get blamed for that as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1084872' date='Jan 10 2011, 09:22 PM']You'd get blamed for that as well? [/quote] My back hurts just looking at John's basses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john turner Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1084872' date='Jan 10 2011, 04:22 PM']You'd get blamed for that as well? [/quote] probably. and there'd be folks who liked the plywood and cardboard version much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Speaking of Conklin, I've not heard from Bill Dickens in ages. Loks like he's been playing bass for Stevie Wonder, using his white Conklin 7 string! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='dlloyd' post='1085293' date='Jan 11 2011, 11:26 AM']My back hurts just looking at John's basses... [/quote] Yeah - but at least he built in a chin rest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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