Theory versus Groove

[paul h]

[quote name='fingerz' post='1017668' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:21 PM']...when I'm like 'what did you just play?!' we are able to have a conversation that leaves me informed, scared and confused!...[/quote]

If any one asks me what I just played I normally say. "I have no idea, what did it sound like?".

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='paul h' post='1017642' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:04 PM']

I really don't like to be controversial and I am not really trying to be so I hope that this is going to be taken in the light hearted manner it is intended...

I haven't read any of this thread but in others...

I have been called dishonest for liking relic jobs, by a reader. I have read posts where a reader states categorically, and completely seriously, that jazz fans are more intelligent that everyone else. A reader has also said (and I paraphrase) that playing cover versions, something a lot of us do, is infantile and beneath him.

The point is that we are all as bad as each other when we are defending our viewpoints.

But readers are worse.

[/quote]
Well I'd like to think this is the exception that proves the rule. And of course there are narrow minded nobs who read also.

I was referring to recent conversations tbh

Edited November 9, 2010 by jakesbass

[fingerz]

[quote name='paul h' post='1017673' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:24 PM']If any one asks me what I just played I normally say. "I have no idea, what did it sound like?".

[/quote]


lol

[paul h]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1017679' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:27 PM']Well I'd like to think this is the exception that proves the rule. And of course there are narrow minded nobs who read also.

I was referring to recent conversations tbh[/quote]

Then I bow to your knowledge of those recent conversations. I haven't the stamina or constitution to read this whole thread!



p.s. Non reader.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='paul h' post='1017685' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:31 PM']p.s. Non reader. [/quote]

Oh

well I'll automatically dismiss what you say then

[Pete Academy]

Regarding Silddx's reggae-playing comment, I think I have to agree to some point. When I first started playing as a teenager, me and a percussionist started a band. He was part of a local black community, so the band consisted mainly of Jamaican musicians, including his very charismatic saxophonist dad. These guys would often push to play reggae, and I was totally out of my depth. They had grown up with the music and had an unbelievable feel for it that would take years for anyone else to master.

There's a thread running at the moment about a rock player struggling to play funk. You are what you eat, and in music terms, you are what you listen to.

I too struggle with the concept that a sheet of musical 'language' (ie dots) will contain all the information to miraculously enable the bassist to play the piece with the required feel. If it's a well-known song, then I can understand the concept. But if I were to turn up at a rehearsal with a written score for my new jazz-funk tune, how would the players interpret it if I hadn't told them how I wanted it to sound?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[xilddx]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1017611' date='Nov 9 2010, 02:41 PM']I don't think [i]any[/i] of the basschat advocates of the learned path has ever said that Doddy, that it is a charge frequently held up by the non schooled basschatters (at least those who make these points) [b]suggests that there is a feeling of that amongst them.[/b]It's a shame because we all can appreciate good bass playing however it is created, but for some reason our viewpoint is challenged time and time again as being somehow soulless. Read through again to find many examples of criticism of reading musicians but broad acceptance by the readers that there are plenty of good players amongst the non readers.
If there were a study into the fairness and objectivity of the charges on these pages then I'm pretty sure that the weight of evidence would suggest that the reading lobby is much more accepting of all comers.[/quote]
Mmm, it's interesting that, perhaps I've made it all up in my head.

Had I met you 20 years ago Jake, I believe I would have taken the literacy path and be bloody good at it by now. Maybe even a pro, I don't know. But now, being 46, with a full time job/career, working toward my professional qualifications, having a lot of other interests, I am content to learn when the need presses. That usually means sporadic ear training, reading musically related stuff, and playing the odd new bit of music learned by ear.

I might add that I am with two superb professional bands led by very talented and individual singer/songwriters who get great reviews, have great prospects, and musically that's where I want to be. I am pretty much happy. I get to write and play bass lines to some wickid music by wickid people, dress up and funk it up on a stage with other like-minded people. I made the choice to have a day job and not try to be a pro a long time ago. I have seen a lot of supremely talented people try it and fail. I took a more pragmatic approach because I quite like having some money for dinner and new strings.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1017694' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:36 PM']Regarding Silddx's reggae-playing comment, I think I have to agree to some point. When I first started playing as a teenager, me and a percussionist started a band. He was part of a local black community, so the band consisted mainly of Jamaican musicians, including his very charismatic saxophonist dad. These guys would often push to play reggae, and I was totally out of my depth. They had grown up with the music and had an unbelievable feel for it that would take years for anyone else to master.

There's a thread running at the moment about a rock player struggling to play funk. You are what you eat, and in music terms, you are what you listen to.

I too struggle with the concept that a sheet of musical 'language' (ie dots) will contain all the information to miraculously enable the bassist to play the piece with the required feel. If it's a well-known song, then I can understand the concept. But if I were to turn up at a rehearsal with a written score for my new jazz-funk tune, how would the players interpret it if I hadn't told them how I wanted it to sound?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.[/quote]
It's an interesting point Pete. The basic idea is that a large amount of the information is contained within a score and it takes rehearsal, a conductor/MD or even a producer to have an overview and express to the band exactly how it should be conveyed. There are many examples of classical conductors working their own interpretations from scores that were written by long dead composers.
I guess the point is that the dots mean you can arrive without having spent hours memorising music, but can still apply all the skill and craft that your musicianship will allow making for very complete renditions of music that would otherwise require a large amount of time to learn.

[fingerz]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1017702' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:43 PM']It's an interesting point Pete. The basic idea is that a large amount of the information is contained within a score and it takes rehearsal, a conductor/MD or even a producer to have an overview and express to the band exactly how it should be conveyed. There are many examples of classical conductors working their own interpretations from scores that were written by long dead composers.
I guess the point is that the dots mean you can arrive without having spent hours memorising music, but can still apply all the skill and craft that your musicianship will allow making for very complete renditions of music that would otherwise require a large amount of time to learn.[/quote]

Yep

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017701' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:41 PM']Mmm, it's interesting that, perhaps I've made it all up in my head.[/quote]

Point is Nige I think most of the readers here accept you for what you are and expect you are probably a good player, I know you can play (having met you) and I'm sure that you bring something unique to your projects.
I have always been of the view that music is for anyone that wants a go, if you want to be really really good then for most mortals learning how to be really really good involves study.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1017702' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:43 PM']It's an interesting point Pete. The basic idea is that a large amount of the information is contained within a score and it takes rehearsal, a conductor/MD or even a producer to have an overview and express to the band exactly how it should be conveyed. There are many examples of classical conductors working their own interpretations from scores that were written by long dead composers.
I guess the point is that the dots mean you can arrive without having spent hours memorising music, but can still apply all the skill and craft that your musicianship will allow making for very complete renditions of music that would otherwise require a large amount of time to learn.[/quote]

Thanks for that, Jake. I honestly didn't understand the concept.

[algmusic]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1017702' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:43 PM']It's an interesting point Pete. The basic idea is that a large amount of the information is contained within a score and it takes rehearsal, a conductor/MD or even a producer to have an overview and express to the band exactly how it should be conveyed. There are many examples of classical conductors working their own interpretations from scores that were written by long dead composers.
I guess the point is that the dots mean you can arrive without having spent hours memorising music, but can still apply all the skill and craft that your musicianship will allow making for very complete renditions of music that would otherwise require a large amount of time to learn.[/quote]


This exactly the point I was trying to make.. I personally read the musicianship stuff as non-theoretical stuff.. well in my eyes, it's not, some might think it is though, which would be fair argument also

Edited November 9, 2010 by algmusic

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1017718' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:49 PM']This exactly the point I was trying to make.. I personally read the musicianship stuff as non-theoretical stuff.. well in my eyes, it's not, some might think it is though, which would be fair argument also[/quote]

[xilddx]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1017718' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:49 PM']This exactly the point I was trying to make.. I personally read the musicianship stuff as non-theoretical stuff.. well in my eyes, it's not, some might think it is though, which would be fair argument also[/quote]
Run that by me again

EDIT: I have a fence for sale if you want it.

Edited November 9, 2010 by silddx

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017723' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:57 PM']Run that by me again

EDIT: I have a fence for sale if you want it.[/quote]

[xilddx]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1017710' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:46 PM']Point is Nige I think most of the readers here accept you for what you are and expect you are probably a good player, I know you can play (having met you) and I'm sure that you bring something unique to your projects.
I have always been of the view that music is for anyone that wants a go, if you want to be really really good then for most mortals learning how to be really really good involves study.[/quote]
Fair comment Jake. I think a lot of the problems lie in that most people seem to think "really really good" means to be really, really versatile, and hence be able to make a passable living as a professional musician from depping, MDing, teaching, sessions, etc. That sounds like hell to me. Give me my day job any time

When I was in my formative years, I just wanted to be in a successful rock band. But not in the way Steve Vai or Billy Sheehan might be, but in the way Alex Lifeson or Geddy are. So I sat for 5-10 hours a day learning rock music by ear, and playing it on the guitar. Read some theory books and got put off by how extraordinarily complicated they made it seem. I think the Garry Hagberg & Howard Roberts Praxis system is excellent though, but it's for guitar and is in notation so it forcedme to read a bit.

[fingerz]

[quote name='silddx' post='1017741' date='Nov 9 2010, 04:10 PM']Fair comment Jake. I think a lot of the problems lie in that most people seem to think "really really good" means to be really, really versatile, and hence be able to make a passable living as a professional musician from depping, MDing, teaching, sessions, etc. That sounds like hell to me. Give me my day job any time

When I was in my formative years, I just wanted to be in a successful rock band. But not in the way Steve Vai or Billy Sheehan might be, but in the way Alex Lifeson or Geddy are. So I sat for 5-10 hours a day learning rock music by ear, and playing it on the guitar. Read some theory books and got put off by how extraordinarily complicated they made it seem. I think the Garry Hagberg & Howard Roberts Praxis system is excellent though, but it's for guitar and is in notation so it forcedme to read a bit.[/quote]

I think it was Ronnie Scott who said 'Ultimately, I just want to sound like myself' - This is a common aim for the bulk of musicians pro or not. Yes being versatile is important (to make a living as a professional musician), but if you don't have an identity in your playing in whatever you do I think it can work against you. The problem with theory is that people think that it will dilute your playing and not give you the tools to express yourself better, it should be used to achieve the latter..

[fingerz]

... And I'm a groove player !

[Pete Academy]

I know some people thought this was a pointless thread but it has yielded some interesting and informative stuff.

[fingerz]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1017781' date='Nov 9 2010, 04:28 PM']I know some people thought this was a pointless thread but it has yielded some interesting and informative stuff.[/quote]

For sure

[Mog]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1017647' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:10 PM']I think you have missed what I'm saying.. 1st of all the scores I'm talking about are the ones you might get given on the the day and you do the gig. I'd be surprised if you'd never come across any scores you were given that don't have mistakes.. try doing a theatre show :-)

Also I'm not implying reading from a score is life less and dull, I did not say that at all mate. I actually have no bad feelings to reading music or readers, I am one. I feel in my humble opinion you have to read the feeling between the notes. Use your ears, listen to the rest of your fellow musicians in the piece of music and none of that is on the score. I have many classical musician friends that show me this on regular basis and they are definitely 'readers'. You can play the same notes but one way brings the music alive and the other is like a machine played it.

I do think maybe the term groove seems to imply that it has to feel funky of some sort.. In my mind this term means making the music feel good not f***y just right for the music, regardless of genre.[/quote]

Maybe I took you up wrong or something, anyways. I've always sourced my own scores lad, I'm a bit anal that way! I get what you're saying about playing between the notes but it should be done at the right time. In some cases it shouldn't be done at all depending on genre. Then theres the question, "When does a groove become fret w***ing?" Subjective I know but maybe a valid question?
I also agree with you re the definition of "Groove" IMO it should be something simple and tasteful, a riff or run that very slightly changes the mood of that particular section of the song. Thats where versatility can play a major role IMO. Having a knowledge of other styles and applying them to what you're playing etc.

In general guys I really hope this isn't going to turn into a Them Vs Us kinda thing. The forum is well above that IME. What passes for good or bad/right or wrong is subjective. It really shouldn't be descending towards a cock measuring contest.

[Truckstop]

Mines 11 inches

Truckstop

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1017808' date='Nov 9 2010, 04:39 PM']Mines 11 inches

Truckstop[/quote]

Mine's 12 inches, but I don't use it as a rule.

[Mog]

Fretw***ers!! Edited November 9, 2010 by Mog

[Bilbo]

[quote name='paul h' post='1017642' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:04 PM']I have read posts where a reader states categorically, and completely seriously, that jazz fans are more intelligent that everyone else. A reader has also said (and I paraphrase) that playing cover versions, something a lot of us do, is infantile and beneath him.[/quote]


That was me!!! I am a troll and I didn't know it!!