OldGit Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 (edited) You know "one drop "reggae say like Bob Marley's No Woman No Cry .. Is that 4/4 or 2/4? I ask because in one outfit I play in the musical director insists on counting reggae as 1 & 2 & with the one drop drum beat on the 2, the guitar upchops on both &'s .. Me I think it should be 1 2 [b]3[/b] 4 with the beat on the three and the chops on 2 and 4. It's a lot easier to explain things to non-skanked up gu|t@rists that way anyhow .. I know it sounds the same but I just wondered how it should from a musical theory perspective ... Ta OG Edited June 1, 2007 by OldGit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 (edited) No, it's not 2/4. As I sit here listening to No Woman No Cry it is definitely 4/4 with the snare and bass drum beats together on 2 and 4. Your "Musical Director" sounds like he comes from the Billy Cotton school of music!!! Edited June 1, 2007 by chris_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 [quote name='chris_b' post='10539' date='Jun 1 2007, 01:57 PM']No, it's not 2/4. As I sit here listening to No Woman No Cry it is definitely 4/4 with the snare and bass drum beats together on 2 and 4. Your "Musical Director" sounds like he comes from the Billy Cotton school of music!!![/quote] Scarily enough he is a university music lecturer It wobbles my self confidence a bit when people like that hear things differently to me .. I knda assume they must be right ... Hey hang on, Snare and Bass drum on 2 and 4? Ah see now you are counting it slow 4/4 where I'd count that fast 4/4 with the bass drum on the 3 .. You see the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 [quote name='OldGit' post='10645' date='Jun 1 2007, 04:46 PM']Hey hang on, Snare and Bass drum on 2 and 4? Ah see now you are counting it slow 4/4 where I'd count that fast 4/4 with the bass drum on the 3 ..[/quote] You have to count slow to get the groove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 [quote name='chris_b' post='10661' date='Jun 1 2007, 05:34 PM']You have to count slow to get the groove.[/quote] Ah no, You have to [b]play[/b] slow to get the groove .. :0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chardbass Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 [quote name='OldGit' post='10680' date='Jun 1 2007, 06:07 PM']Ah no, You have to [b]play[/b] slow to get the groove .. :0[/quote] A cool tip that's worth trying is to count slow ballads in double time (or feel the 8th note pulse) and up tempo tunes in half time (or feel the half note pulse)- it can stop you slowing or speeding up respectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 [quote name='chardbass' post='11652' date='Jun 4 2007, 01:42 AM']A cool tip that's worth trying is to count slow ballads in double time (or feel the 8th note pulse) and up tempo tunes in half time (or feel the half note pulse)- it can stop you slowing or speeding up respectively.[/quote] Thanks Actually playing it is not the problem. The problem I have is explaining to gu|t@rists where to put the skank chop. I'd say "2 and 4", but the MD (who I dare not contradict for fear of loosing my solos...) says "& and &" and the strummers look blank and then get lost Well I was watching the Exodus 30 year Horizon programme last night on the BBC and I still think its 4/4 with the one drop on the 3 and the skank on 2 and 4 .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 4/4 with kick on 3 and skank on 2 and 4. Counting it in half time with kick on 2 and 4 makes it much harder to feel the bubbling forward motion. It sounds like your musical director is treating it too much like a polka! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 [quote name='alexclaber' post='11720' date='Jun 4 2007, 10:45 AM']4/4 with kick on 3 and skank on 2 and 4. Counting it in half time with kick on 2 and 4 makes it much harder to feel the bubbling forward motion. It sounds like your musical director is treating it too much like a polka! Alex[/quote] Yeah well I think he lack skank in his soul ... more of a jazz man .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 [quote name='alexclaber' post='11720' date='Jun 4 2007, 10:45 AM']4/4 with kick on 3 and skank on 2 and 4. Counting it in half time with kick on 2 and 4 makes it much harder to feel the bubbling forward motion. It sounds like your musical director is treating it too much like a polka! Alex[/quote] Agree 100% with OG & Alex. Reggae always has the accent on the 3. That's how Stewart Copeland explains it anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 (edited) Without sitting down and trying it to confirm my thoughts, i think i would have a problem counting double time and playing halftime, i mean obviously its easily done, but i would imagine it kills the feel to a degree!?. Having said that, unless i'm playing something in a (very) odd meter i wouldn't be counting while playing anyway. I kinda agree that counting slow helps groove, certainly in my head it would aid playing slow. Is there really a theoretical right and wrong on this, surely its a personal preference? Si Edited June 4, 2007 by Sibob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I think it can affect the feel of the music. I think that's why people sometimes get quite heated about how to count something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 [quote name='The Funk' post='12019' date='Jun 4 2007, 07:34 PM']I think it can affect the feel of the music. I think that's why people sometimes get quite heated about how to count something.[/quote] I had a look through youtoob for drum lessons on reggae and none of them count the bits in, drummers etc? I'll have to get some sheet music for jammin the Exodus album or something and see what the transcriber's said ..:0 To be honest it doesn't really matter I just wondered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 (edited) To be honest, i think that counting things is something that well get debated for years to come. As long as the tune your doing sounds good and feels good............it is good! . And based on my very limited knowledge of reggae (i like it but never studied it), if i was trying to explain the basics to a guitarist, i'd just say "play the chops on the upbeat", simple as. Si Edited June 4, 2007 by Sibob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 [quote name='Sibob' post='12098' date='Jun 4 2007, 09:50 PM']To be honest, i think that counting things is something that well get debated for years to come. As long as the tune your doing sounds good and feels good............it is good! . And based on my very limited knowledge of reggae (i like it but never studied it), if i was trying to explain the basics to a guitarist, i'd just say "play the chops on the upbeat", simple as. Si[/quote] Yup and back we come to the problem ... When is the up beat? I know but the guitarist doesn't ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Why doesn't the guitarist know Has he not ears? :-D Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 [quote name='Sibob' post='12242' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:32 AM']Why doesn't the guitarist know Has he not ears? :-D Si[/quote] Ah well it's more complicated than that. It's a community jazz outfit with an "open door, all comers" approach They are not learning by ear but from a score where their part is not written out .. They are largely expeccted to "know" what to do or be guided by older hands (some of which are 20 years younger than they are ) and they all take what the MD says as gospel ... The guitarists (and it's not just guitarists who are expected to play the skank in this stuff) are either beginners or moonlighting on guitar when they are really tenor horn players escaped from a brass band... or somesuch ... So it's not your normal "take this track and learn it" situation ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 [quote name='OldGit' post='12071' date='Jun 4 2007, 08:59 PM']I'll have to get some sheet music for jammin the Exodus album or something and see what the transcriber's said ..:0[/quote] Don't trust sheet music, it was probably transcribed by someone with as much understanding of reggae as my Mum. You've got to play them the record!!!! Some Bob Marley numbers: Jamming has the guitar chop on 2 and 4. Exodus has a different guitar feel with no straight chop. In Lively Up Yourself, Wait In Vain and Stir It Up the guitar chop is on each off beat; ie 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & . ps Play them the record! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 5, 2007 Author Share Posted June 5, 2007 [quote name='chris_b' post='12261' date='Jun 5 2007, 01:37 AM']Play them the record![/quote] Ok I think we've nailed this ... Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassbloke Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 (edited) It's 4/4 but it makes most sense to me to count it as [i]one and two and one and two and one and two and[/i] the guitar chord should go on the first 'and' and the snare on the 'two' That sounds suitably chilled to my ears. often, going one two three four one two three four one two three four can have you racing through a tune. Edited June 5, 2007 by bassbloke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davemarks Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Hey guys - I have taught reggae as a style at TVU/ drumtech / The ICMP and I've played for a few bands doing reggae stuff - the standard is to count it in 4/4. Skank on 2 and 4. Kick and cross stick on beat 3. That way, if the drums move to 4 on the floor, they are on all 4 beats, as opposed to on 8th notes. It feels like quite a fast way to count, but it is the standard. I'll post a little video clip on youtube at some point soon to accompany my Bass Guitar Magazine Reggae Style File. It'll have some detail on the drum parts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 I also gig in a Reggae band, with a couple of Jamaican drummers. Their take on this question is: Why are you counting? Feel it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chop Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 [quote name='The Funk' post='11884' date='Jun 4 2007, 03:31 PM']Agree 100% with OG & Alex. Reggae always has the accent on the 3. That's how Stewart Copeland explains it anyway.[/quote] EXACTLY how I was going to describe it. Funk is "on the one", reggae is the third beat Chop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 8, 2007 Author Share Posted June 8, 2007 [quote name='chris_b' post='14133' date='Jun 8 2007, 12:40 PM']I also gig in a Reggae band, with a couple of Jamaican drummers. Their take on this question is: Why are you counting? Feel it![/quote] Ah you'd have to read the top of the thread for the answer to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted June 8, 2007 Author Share Posted June 8, 2007 [quote name='Davemarks' post='14129' date='Jun 8 2007, 12:32 PM']Hey guys - I have taught reggae as a style at TVU/ drumtech / The ICMP and I've played for a few bands doing reggae stuff - the standard is to count it in 4/4. Skank on 2 and 4. Kick and cross stick on beat 3. That way, if the drums move to 4 on the floor, they are on all 4 beats, as opposed to on 8th notes. It feels like quite a fast way to count, but it is the standard. I'll post a little video clip on youtube at some point soon to accompany my Bass Guitar Magazine Reggae Style File. It'll have some detail on the drum parts...[/quote] Dave thanks for that .. I knew I was right ha ha well I knew I was thinking about it in the easiest way to communicate it anyway. I feel a lot better now )))))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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