Phil Starr

You are beginning to sell me on the idea of the ZAR's, what you say about the ZS10's is true. I love them for listening to music and for monitoring bass but that harshness does nothing for my vocals and I prefer my Sennheiser IE100's if I'm singing. How similar are they physically to the zs10's I ask because I've had custom moulds made for my ZS10's and if they use the same shell I can just swap them.

It's hard to say without a lot more detail but putting a sub next to a wall is going to effectively double it's output on top of the reinforcement from the floor. I think having any mic within a foot of a sub is going to create issues. The sound coming from the sub may not sound very loud but at those frequencies the mic 'hears' better than you do. All of the sound from the sub is omnidirectional The tops point most of the sound away from the mics but behind the subs is just as loud as in front. Using subs isn't as easy as plug and play, be prepared to turn them right down, keep them well away from any mics and consider whether you need to use HPF. It may sound counter-intuitive to filter the bass from your subs but if sound below 50Hz is causing feedback problems and sets off room resonances it has to go. Percevere and you'll get there

What you are looking for is gain. A microphone puts out a few thousandths of a volt, a bass pickup a bit more, pre amps usually give you a bit of gain. 10x is not unusual in which case your few thousandths would become a few hundreths of a volt. Power amps tend to be looking for around 0.7 volts so little mixers or even big ones will put out at least this much and a bit more. Not all power amps are equal so some need a bit more than 0.7V which is usually described as line levelor 0db. Most of the multi-fx units will give you plenty of gain and amplify your bass up to line level and more. Many active speakers can be switched to take a mic level signal and you should be able to just plug your bass in and even have to turn it down a bit. But not all separate fx boxes will add enough gain to drive line level and not all active speakers will be guaranteed to have a mic level input (most do) so you will have to check. Your 2-3 channel mixer will give you all the gain and impedance matching you need but probably won't be necessary.

I agree with @TimR it's a long time since I played HtoH but I'm pretty sure my bass line included a lot of what the brass section were doing. In a lot of songs over the years I've found a lot of the original bassists playing things musically wrong but those things survived the edits and are there in the original rerecording. Famously Jean Genie contains quite a 'few slips' including in the bass riff that runs through most of the song. Trevor Bolder the bassist says he can't remember what he played. The whole idea of original is quite a blurred vision of music. Is the 'original' the first take, what the bassist played or something the composer wrote down before the session man walked in? Is it the album version or the single version? Or maybe the version wher the original bassist played the wrong note? I think those of us who have played in multiple bands probably do it differently. We've often got a lot of songs to learn in a short time often in bands that prove to be unstable/short lived and with people who work full time so rehearsals are a luxury. I'd have 'learned' this as part of a batch of 30 songs and I'd probably have known 10 of the songs. I'd never heard the Black Crowes before. Learning would have been lots of listening followed by downloading the chord sheet and initially just playing the rhythm and the root notes and making notes of any fills, stops and stabs etc. The aim would be to be able to go through the first rehearsal with a firm base from the rhythm section so the rest of the band can do their stuff without any startling errors. If it worked I'd take that to the gigs. I'd also know that the band might be missing some of the instruments or that the drummer would be playing four to the floor and I might add in bits to the bass line not in the original. Each song sets up musical challenges and with limited abilities I do my best. Set lists often change and songs get dropped so with 20 songs getting things 'correct' is a waste of time, if the songs last I'll add in refinements but this is often based upon what the rest of the band are doing. Like @Al Krow I take a pragmatic approach. Go Your Own Way is a good example. There are at least three guitar parts in the intro and I've played with drummers and guitarists that struggle with the intro. I've variously started the song playing one of the rhythm guitar parts on Bass and I've also played it properly. It's got that lovely run at the end and initially I played the notes all 'wrong' but with the rhythm and feel of the original and nothing that would clash with the guitarists solo. Later I went back and learned it properly but I doubt a single band member noticed and the audience not at all. It's great to sometimes learn things note for note and you learn loads by doing it but criticising people by describing it a lazy isn't seeing the bigger picture IMO Now I must go and learn the proper ending to that Monkees song btw it's the Black Crowes in the original spelling, couldn't resist it

Welcome to Bass Chat. I think all my direct experience is detailed above. The BW speakers are now another 5 years older and most will now be showing signs of their age. I think you've little to lose by trying the repairs detailed above. The life expectancy is going to be short anyway depending upon how you intend using them so you have little to lose if the repair fails. You haven't told us what the exact problem is.

Was this just your in-ears? Are you using ZS10 Pros? I find these do have some pretty striking resonances and unless your in ear fit is near perfect they can sound this way. I've ended up first of all with the tripkle flange ear tips that go deep into my ear canals and ultimately with moulded ear tips and they've improved matters. There is quite a pronounced mid range suckout too, they are far from flat, see below. I'd start by trying to get a great fit but then filtering out the sub 50Hz content and boosting 100-1.5kHz to flatten out the response, or at least being aware of the response when you eq. The other thing is that the audience experience of your bass looks to be pretty good and I find the live sound of my bass compared to my practice sound is really mid dominated and thin and clacky might be a good description. If you've got your bass well forward in your personal mix then you aren't hearing what the audience hear. Even if you aren't using ZS10's the mid suckout isn't rare in headphones I'd still be looking to check for a good fit and looking to boost low mids a little for bass.

Your SansAmp will do the splitting for you, it has two pairs of outputs a pair of jacks and a pair of xlr's. One of each is a clean output the other tone shaped within the SansAmp. Simply plug your bass straight into the SA and take one of the outputs to the clean amp and the other to all the fx in your dirty channel

Thank you all for your contributions. I've rarely depped and only for friends. I was part of a house band for an openmic/jam session and just about coped but the idea of busking a set is just too scary for me this is definitely about findng how the other half see it. So I'll make sure I have up to date charts before I start looking and have everything else ready. We always play as per the originals apart from faded endings, key changes are few and always flagged up. We do have 40+ songs for the dep to choose from and to be honest four chords cover most of our songs so in that sense it isn't too difficult to cover most of our set. I think if we phrase any ads right we should be able to sort the enthusiast for new songs from those who are balancing the cash with the amount of work. Most of you here seem to be working for a share of the pot rather than having a fixed fee which is pretty encouraging. Not denigrating those who play for a living and have to consider the cash, let's face it few of us 'earn' the living wage from this so good luck to those few that do. We just can't afford that sort of level of expense. The biggest issue left is avoiding some of the gutarists who've offered to dep in the past who just don't have the skills or experience. I've met @tauzero's seven bar guitarist rather him than the ones who stop 7/8ths through a bar

How's the lead guitar work coming on? I may have a job for you

I guess there's a worry about crossover distortion. We treat crossovers as neutral things that just cut off the lows from one speaker and cut the highs from the other. In practice the cut off isn't instant and there are a range of frequencies when both speakers are operating. At the crossover point the theory is that both speakers are designed to be 3db down halving the power to each and tow halves make a whole. That's the theory in practice it's really hard to get the exact match and on a frequency plot even with the best hi fi speakers you can always see the crossover frequency as either a little dip or a little peak. In most speakers you can hear it too. This is compounded by phase changes, slight delays between the sound coming at you from one speaker and the other. This makes the sound cancel at some frequencies. There's a slight delay in the speakers moving with the big ones taking longer to get going, the crossover components cause their own phase changes and to add to that the speakers would need to have their centre's equal distances from your ears. Crossover design is really complex and even the best computer aided design only gets you so close. Sombody really needs to sit down and spend the hours/days remeasuring and tweaking to get it right. Digital active crossovers make it easier and we benfit from the move to active PA cabs. Various trade names like 'Firphase' indicate where the manufacturer has tried to tame all the phase related crossover distortion and used a bit of delay to time align the drivers. However I don't think this is so much of an issue in using subs. Our hearing is just so much less sensitive down there and although theoretically a bass singer could get down that far he would have so little fundamental content that I reqally don't think it would be noticed. Maybe a trained sound tech in ideal studio listening conditions would be able to hear something in the kick drum sound but not in the wilds of PA. A lot of the new stick PA systems crossover in the 300-1,000Hz range and do so quite successfully and have the advantage over the 2-3,000 Hz crossovers of conventional PA in that part of what they do. The OP doesn't need to worry he only has 100 or 120Hz to choose from.

@Bilbo and @casapete Thanks for this. It encourages me to think that there are people out there who can do a job for us, I just need to find them. We've been through three guitarists who all turned down me sending the charts, I sent videos of our band playing the songs, spotify playlists of the originals so they could see the arrrangements we use. We stick to the originals because we want to avoid ny surprises. We've only changed key in three or four songs and that was clearly marked on the set list.It's just staggered me that anyone would promise to learn a set by a given date and not put the effort in up front to be able to deliver. Nice people completely deluded about the effort needed to deliver a 30 song set. I've not got the skills to dep at the last minute but I've learned sets to help out mates. It is a lot of work, I'll live with the songs in the car for as long as it takes, play through the songs with the chord sheets on day one picking out chord changes rhythms and the bits I need to worry about. Gigging musicians are a different breed. The trouble is most of them are already gigging

I think that is more the route we are thinking of taking. It's then up to us to take the band to the level where the figures do add up. Part of this is my wanting to just play at a higher level I've spent 15+ years playing in 'bog standard' covers bands covering the same songs everyone else does. Every now and again we've recruited better musicians and the whole band are lifted and suddenly the gigs roll in and people want to join the band. The early days with this band promised something better so I want to recruit well and get back to that feeling. Deps potentially would allow us to continue gigging whist we search and who knows we might be able to recruit one of the deps if they enjoy it enough.

We are struggling to find a guitarist and if I'm honest it's because of our set, think Tina Turner, Pink, Blondie,Lady Gaga and so on. Most of the guitarists round here are of a certain age and want to play rock from the 70's,80's 90's and so on. This isn't primarily guitar music so not seen as rewarding. We are looking to fill the dance floor and give people a good time not force them to listen to rock standards. I don't have a problem with that, I get that if you are of a certain age then music is about fun and playing what you enjoy. I'm sure we'll find someone permanent in the end but we've had bookings available and turned them down. I'm looking at a way to build the band while we look and it'll be easier to recruit if we have a full calender I suppose I'm asking the BassChat collective to give some guidance as to how to attract and hang on to deps and if it is possible to run a band with only a core of permanent members. It's not my ideal but if it can work I'd rather do that than fold the band. As you say no harm in trying but no harm in asking for advice either, and thanks Matt this is helping

I've offered that as It's what I use when learning new songs. I also provide a spotify playlist of the originals and shifted key recordings of any songs we play differently from the originals. I've also got videos of much of our set. Mostly people have been offered those sort of charts but turned them down.

Thanks Matt, that's obviously not what I wanted to hear but probably what I expected. If I thought it was going to be easy there would have been no point in asking. I'll wait for a few more opinions before making my mind up whether and what to try. What you say sounds about right though That brings it into the realms of possibility. We were OK as a band, our first lineup was with a guy from a function band we just needed a bit more time with him and we could have raised our fees. He'd been doing 200 gigs a year with fees for that band in the £600-1,000 bracket. His wife said at the first gig that we were better than his function band, I think she meant the set was better and we were more entertaining but we were obviously OK. I'm not personally in it for the money, I'm in the lucky position where everything I earn is just put aside for any gear I fancy and treats for my long suffering partner who loses her weekends quite a lot but is very supportive. The singer and I pay all the incidental costs of the band already and I'd be happy to sub some of my fee to bring the deps fee up to £150. I wouldn't be ecstatic about it but it might be more fun than dredging the bottom for a guitarist or spending months in rehearsals while they painfully learn one song a week.

Just to make it clear this is a pub covers band with aspirations, but still just a covers band. Any talk of 'pro' musicians wanting £2-300 and expecting to have the dots written out is way out of the realms of possibility. We've used a few drummers as deps and that's always worked, a couple of them turned up with no rehearsal and were superb, a couple of others wanted a run through which we organised and that worked well too. The guitarists we've used as deps have all asked for a run through. Only one of those turned up having all the songs good to go. The others wanted a second rehearsal. So what we are looking for are just competent guitarists who can reliably deliver a set. If they are any good the idea would be to use them regularly. I've chatted with @Jakester in the past about dep drumming for us (hi Jake ) in that instance it was the combination of distance, the set and money that meant it made no sense for that gig. We've spent months looking for the ideal replacement for our guitarist with no luck. I'm just trying to get Bass Chat's collective wisdom about the possibility and practicalities of using regular deps instead so that we can continue gigging. One particular practicality is how much will it cost. I'm fed up with rehearsing rather than gigging only to find people who can't meet deadlines or who aren't capable of carrying a full set of songs and I don't want to turn down any more gigs. If paying someone competent the going rate is a practical proposition then it's a no-brainer. A share of our crrent charge would be £80 so that would be no problem. I'd happily pay £100 to end the endless search though so many inexperienced hopefuls. If using deps pushes up the standard of what we do we can up the charges as soon as our bookings start filling up again. You can probably tell I'm a bit frustrated with all this

I''m assuming you can set the sub's crossover point. if not you should use whatever fixed point that has and match it as nearly as possible with the tops. if it is completely variable I'd use 120Hz. My resoning would say take as much bass out of the tops as you can. In practice I doubt it matters or that you would notice as that's only 3 semitones difference

@bassbiscuits Thanks for kicking this off. In the past our deps have usually been part of the 'family', friends of the band or of other friends. As such they always simple accepted the missing persons share. Our standard fee is £300-320 so that's only £75-80 I'm concerned that won't be enough to attract a pro to learn a 30 song set. Having said that I also know another friend does national tours with a band and pays £100 a night for his musicians plus basic accommodation so maybe I'm being pessimistic. I know a lot of band members and ex band members over the years who have been full time musicians in the sense of it being their only source of income and they've had to earn most of their income by teaching mid week so £80 for an evening's work has been helpful to them. in some ways it's an easy gig. No band tension, we've a pretty professional approach, decent PA and lights and everything is ready for them to just come along and play. The songs are all as the originals apart from 3 or 4 which have a key change. At what level would you think you would think it worth doing?

Has anyone wide experience of using specialised dep musicians? Or maybe you work as a regular dep. If so how has it gone for you and what do charge/pay for a typical gig? We've been trying to get a project going for a while and keep stumbling over finding a decent guitarist. Quite simply most of them struggle to work outside of their usual genre and fail to learn the songs. We don't gig frequently enough to attract pro musicians to join the band and the amateurs are too amateur. We started out with a great drummer and guitarist and played three gigs to an enthusiastic reception from the audiences and re-bookings from the venues. The guitarist left due to changes in his circumstances and the drummer sold her house and moved. I've used a number of drummers as deps and it has always been great. Dep guitarists have been mixed with one turning up for a run through knowing every song in the set with around a weeks notice and at the other extreme having to turn the guitar off in the monitors so we could get through the songs. I've talked to some of the function bands round here and the use of deps is fairly extensive and these bands sound great. Using deps wopuld let us go on developing the band and building up contacts whilst looking out for a long term band member.

Fixed The article doesn't say that a primer is needed but does say that sanding well is the preparation needed for good adhesion and that acrylic and enamel paints are the ones to use. Interestingly ABS reacts with quite a few organic solvents which is relatively unusual for many plastics. It seems possible that some paints could chemically bond with some plastics and I know Styrene does bond with enamel paints well from my days building airfix kits. The proof of the pudding is in the eating of course. I'd be interested to try so long as it was with someone else's cab I had a couple of hours of fun reading about ABS and it's chemistry

Let's hope that's the end of the problem.

Great that it all went well, I love doing sound at open air gigs. with no reflective surfaces and multiple sound pathways you really get to hear just how good your sound can be. and that bass sound your audience is hearing shows you just how good bass through PA can be. The onstage sound is lower usually for two reasons you are usually further from the PA speakers and often have a lot more space and are further from all the speakers. Often the bass frequencies indoors dominate the sound. If the PA is loud enough to reach the audience in the back rows then because it's omnidirectional it is going to be too loud on stage and the PA speakers are only going to be a couple of metres away at best. Tops on a pair of subs is usually OK indoors as the multiple reflections usually fill the power alleys. Subs together would usually mean in front of the singer so not really an option anyway. You also get power alleys outdoors if you use tops with no subs and it is usually really obvious as we've found multiple times using my RCF745's with no subs. If you have two speakers and the same level of bass you get exactly the same power alleys.

It'll be good to hear how you get on with them. I've two gigs with my lowly RCF310's this weekend and I know they'll sound good with bass and drums going through them. The 710's should be even better. Good luck with the gig

I'd wondered about re-finishing the cab also. It is made of acrylonitrile butadiene styrene or ABS. This is a really tough plastic which can be made with various formulations but all designed to be hard wearing. Lego bricks are made of ABS Anyway it can be sprayed with enamel paint or acrylic paints. Tough Cab is the brand most commonly used for painting cabs in this country and is an acrylic paint. You can also get acrylic paints in rattle cans from artists supplies and most of the 'kitchen' and 'bathroom' paints and low VOC gloss paints are acrylic. My Cabs are also ABS and I've been looking at them gradually accumulating little bumps and scrapes and wondering if I could touch them up. At the moment under stage lighting they look fine so I've left well enough alone and bought some covers to stop them getting worse. Anyway here's probably more than anyone needs to know about spraying ABS here

You are quite right to be completely outraged by this. There is however little point in losing it with them. You either accept this as fait accompli or try to fight. Believe it I've been there as I supect have most of us. You could try telling the drummer that it is your band not his and if he wants to go off and start an entirely different band with his new guitarist friend then he needs to do so. Like @pickguard I'd be ringing the singer and asking if she is happy with the changes, make sure she knows you aren't asking her to change sides just whether she would prefer being in your band with the set list she agreed to or the new band with the extended guitar solos. She may be extremely unsettled knowing she is working with such devious selfish people but let her raise any aspect of how they've behaved. Be the nice guy. My prediction is that this band won't be stable with two big egos and no personal loyalty. With that choice of music gigs are likely to be thin on the ground. Anyway with the singer on your side you are in a strong enough position to recruit new people. One word of warning, guitarists who are willing to play anything other than some genre of rock/blues are unusual down here in 'wurzel country'. in fact if you play guitar I might have a proposition for you