Phil Starr

That's quite a lot of experience and your experience would seem to say that single cabs or pairs of identical cabs have generally worked out better, that makes sense as somebody has at least optimised them. It doesn't rule out the happy accident but gives some idea of what the odds might be.

Ha ha Thanks for being kind. I did actually start with a paragraph on phase issues, then it grew to two paragraphs including variable path lengths, then I thought about doing something on room acoustics and decided I'd gone critical mass and nobody would want to read it. I decided non-technical was probably better.

I think that is completely fair. We'd be doing nobody any favours advising them to go out and buy a cab without direct experience. The questions we get are usually of the nature of 'I've been offered (unknown cab) and I want a bit more heft (or other vague term) from my 2x10 which I love. The answer is pretty obviously in that case to buy a second identical cab. If the question is "Can I buy another cab to make up for the shortcomings of my current cab" then the answer is go and listen until you find a cab you do like and part exchange for the one you don't. Nobody should be advising people to spend money which won't do what they want. So we advise them not to waste their money on an untried 'solution' that almost certainly won't work. I think people have extrapolated from that to say mixing cabs is somehow forbidden or technically illiterate. It isn't, but it is not a good way to spend your money.

We haven't had one of those rolling debates for a while and i thought I'd kick one off. It was stimulated by a post by @Tradfusion on one of the LfSys Monza threads so anyone not interested in that cab might not have seen it. This is his post edited down: "I bought an LFSys Monza about a month ago based on the positive reviews here on BC and I haven't been disappointed! Its a really nicely designed cab, I already own 2 Barefaced cabs, the Supercompact and a One10 and I love both cabs but sometimes missed the high end sparkle of a tweeter/horn. Naturally enough my next experiment was to pair the Monza with the BF cabs so on a dep gig with a fairly loud classic rock band I brought along my One10 and sat it on top of the Monza and suddenly the magic started to happen, that cab combination is nothing short of amazing, the warmer and naturally bassier One10 combined with the super clean and more hifi Monza seems to hit a sweet spot that to my ears gives me exactly the tones I am looking for from my basses. A mid punch and tight low end as well as a beautiful smooth top end sparkle.I have used this cab combination now on several gigs and have had many compliments on my tone so obviously something is right about it... I haven't gigged the Monza/Supercompact as a pairing yet but I have linked them at home and they sound fantastic together too so that will be my next experiment..." So that got me thinking, what happens when we mix cabs and why is so much of the advice not to do it when clearly it can work so well empirically. Empiricism is the basis of scientific advance so 'suck it and see' is the rational way to go and if theory says 'don't mix cabs' and it works then the theory has to be wrong, doesn't it? Well not quite of course, science experiments work by isolating single variables and working on them one at a time. It gradually models each aspect of interest starting with a single idea and keeps testing ideas until it has a rounded picture of what is going on. With speakers it's relatively simple system but even so there are dozens of variables that we can quantify and they all interact so even if we talk about a single speaker in a fixed place in a single room we'd struggle to model the sound completely at all the frequencies. So what does happen when you mix two speakers, and how does that work with what is possibly the simplest example above, mixing two different tens? Well first and most obvious is with two speakers moving air it's going to get louder, quite a lot louder because you are also drawing more power from the amp, if you stick well within the amp's limits then you'll double the power. We like louder sounds so combining cabs immediately sounds better. Adding extra speakers always subjectively sounds better and adding extra cabs and stacking them vertically is probably the most practical way of getting extra sound. The next thing though is that not all cabs will match each other. Electricity takes the easiest route so adding a 16ohm cab and a 4ohm cab will see almost all your amps power going through the four ohm cab. All cabs aren't equally loud either; adding a less efficient 1x15 to an 8x10 isn't going to work well with the poor 15 getting lost behind it's noisy neighbour. Getting a reasonable efficiency match isn't easy either as few cabs come with an accurate db/W rating. Most of the thoughts of cab mixing are confused too, adding a 15 to a 4x10 for more bass. Not all 15's are bass dominant and some 4x10's are very bass heavy. Again not made easy because few bass cabs come with a frequency response chart. You are left to kind of guess (maybe guesstimate) as to how any combination will sound. So there is one other problem of combining cabs. Speakers aren't ever accurate reproducers of sound, their response is never ruler flat and often less so once they are mounted in a cab. As well as the broad frequency response there are dozens of tiny lumps and bumps in their responses, especially in the higher frequencies where the cone starts to flex and for most speakers in the midrange of the bass. these are what give each speaker its characteristic 'sound' or timbre. If there is a bump it will make that note pop out when you play and a dip will pull that note back a little. If the bumps for two speakers exactly align then you'll get extra pop but that almost never happens. Most irregularities won't line up and a few will line up with a dip in a differnt speaker. My experience with mixing speakers is that you almost always get a 'smoother' sound as the timbre of both speakers merge. You'll probably lose some of the character of both speakers when you mix different ones, you may get a new character but frankly it's hard to predict and the only test is to try it. I had that demonstrated many years ago when a friend with more time than money built a cab with 50 mixed speakers salvaged from old TV's, it sounded remarkably good given the rubbish it was built around but vocals were wonderfully smooth. My take on this it that there is nothing at all wrong with mixing cabs so long as you pay attention to having a fairly decent match. You'll need to know something about impedance matching and power distribution but combining two 8ohm cabs is rarely going to cause problems. Mixing cabs of different sizes isn't necessarily going to give you 'extra bass' or 'more top' without a lot more knowledge of the speakers than their diameter Mixing cabs will probably lose some or all of their character and serve up something different and this is almost unpredictable. If you want more of a sound you love the advice is always to just add more of the same, don't mix, and stack vertically, never next to each other. My advice is never buy a cab just to improve your sound, not because it is 'wrong' to mix but because it is an expensive way of not getting the sound you want. Instead find a cab that does do what you want and sell the cab that doesn't do it for you, buy two if you still need that louder. That approach is going to work out a lot cheaper in the long run. If you have multiple cabs and they are all 8ohms then mix them all you want and see if it works for you. It'll cost you nothing other than time with your bass which is always time well spent. Experimenting is good not bad. Finally stop obsessing about speaker diameters and trust your ears. So come on what are your experiences of mixing cabs.

The bad news is that MB aren't really home repairable and that in the UK at least after sales support is poor. The good news is that it sounds like at least something is working and that there is a possibility of a few checks before you have to seek drastic and expensive repairs. It's possible that with sound coming out when you turn off that there is a power supply issue or it could be a contact issue. Turning it on and off when everything lights up and the fan switches on is encouraging. The fx send and return are interesting. The return gives you access to the power amp bypassing the pre amp and controls, Try just plugging something into the return and see if that comes out of the speaker, it might be quite quiet because you will have less gain at that point but if it is undistorted the amp section is working. Plugging in a jump lead between send and return as above might help too. They are linked internally with a switch which sometimes corrodes causing problems. If that re-establishes the connection you know the problem, it can be worth spraying a little switch cleaner into the sockets and wiggling a plug in and out to clean up the sockets. If not you are probably going to be in the hands of a tech.

I use either with the bass matched to who I'm playing with. A passive J with my duo and an active P with the band. TBH I could probably swap them round and nobody would notice. I don't do a lot of tone shaping though and I have control of the desk so I adjust it there if I need to adapt to the venue. I use a SansAmp or my Zoom B1 for a little pre shaping to get 'my' tone. My plan is to get two or three pre shapes for the duo where there is less opportunity for changes in texture when there is just the two of us.

Damn you now I have another job to do. I go ampless to most gigs but have 5 amps which is a bit excessive, now I have to clear some of them out. FWIW Bugera Veyron (my go to) Warwick Gnome (backup and open-mic) Peavey Minimax (now never used, I really ought to sell it) Hartke 3500 (probably my best sounding amp but too heavy and long in the tooth, again I ought to sell but it's worth so little) MB Tube (currently dead) (I need to fix this or sell it on for someone else to tinker with)

I really didn't want to play this but then I actually listened to the bass and fell in love. So simple but made by the notes he left out. The under-rated Tommy Cogbill

It's always a tough one isn't it? We lost our singer and drummer during "you know what" We took a punt on a singer who had sung in choirs and acapella groups but never with a band and our drummer is an old pro who was better than the old drummer even at the audition. She's moved the band on a mile and so far so good with the singer. Both are great to work with too. Having to re-build is a pain though.

Mixing cabs is a bit of auditory cookery really. You can put unusual ingredients into your cake and it might taste delicious and it might not be very nice. the only way to find out is to mix it up and taste it. In all probability your first attempt is less likely to be successful than following a recipe but there is also the possibility of a happy accident. in any case my taste is different from yours. I've never liked advice that is categorical and its the never part of mixing cabs that is the issue with that sort of advice. In this case you've cooked up a couple of ingredients you had in and the result is tasty. Why wouldn't you try it out?

I'm in your hands but it might be interesting, We've done speakers for the last two bashes, though I suspect the amps will be less varied, we might be surprised though.

The crew got a bit iffy when I suggested taking a feed from the floor monitors, they were at the limits of their technical ability I suspect. They'd set up the subs under each of the flying arrays about 20m apart when they had plenty of space under the stage to acoustically couple them. They'd also set them to overwhelm the tops which weren't working hard at all and there was very little top end for cymbals. Sometimes you just have to smile, hope and get on with it. Nobody loves a smarty pants. Mind you having been very suspicious of the in-ears my lot wouldn't go back. I quite like the splitter idea though, we've got a couple of active DI's that would have done that. I see @Alfie Noakes was at the same gig the day before

Aaaarghhh. Another mini festival gig ruined by the hire company. Too much through the subs so overwhelming bass out front and impossibly poor on stage monitoring. We were promised an in ear mix only to be told they only had one lead available and that had been given to the drummer. Not prepared to give me the feed from the floor monitor. We have an electric kit so poor monitoring is a real problem.

Good luck

I feel your pain. Replacing your singer is the most disruptive thing that can happen to a band. Any decent guitarist, bassist or keys player is going to be able to bang out most or all of your set. The human voice is just not that adaptable and your singer is inevitably your front person. If the songs don’t suit you will have to drop and replace them. That’s just reality, they have to sell the song not just sing the notes. It’s hugely disruptive and not really the singers fault. I really think you’ve answered your own question 80% of your songs are ‘male’. Look for a singer male or female but if 80% of your songs were written for male voices you have to be realistic about what the most likely outcome is.

Spend wisely and spend only once. £800-900 is a good budget so you should be aiming for good kit. Of what is suggested RCF and Yamaha are good and pretty much bombproof. QSC too but I’d go for RCF for the best quality for you vocals. RCF have recently discontinued the 300 series which was their base level kit but you may just still find some discounted. The 700 series are really nice and 900 even better. The numbering is fairly simple the 712 is 700 series with a 1” tweeter and 12” bass speaker. So a 935 is a slightly better 15 with a 3” tweeter. You can just about afford an RCF 712 system new but I’d probably look for used. There are three pairs of 712’s on FB Marketplace today for£600 for example. I’d happily gig with 312’s as well which should be cheaper. If you do want to save money then the old passive speakers can be found really cheaply but you’d need to know enough to match the amp and it’s just a little more fuss to set up. A good option if you know enough and money is tight though.

kozfest

You said yourself that designing cabs is like modelling balloons. You press down on somewhere for an improvement and something else pops up. MDF is fantastic for cabs, it's a completely uniform and consistent material. compared with other boards it is self damping and largely non resonant as a result. The extra mass helps too in a cab. It's also reasonably tough. The big problems are weight, how badly it deforms with even a little moisture and the dust it produces when you machine it. Chipboard (particle board in the US ) is good too but it needs to be high density and have fine particles at least on the outside or it is a B****r to finish well. If it isn't high density it's too soft and doesn't take knocks well but high density means just that, it's heavy. So then there is plywood which comes in so many grades but is essentially lighter and tougher than the other man made boards but acoustically more resonant and will need more bracing for a similar performance. Useable is a good word, bracing a cab extensively pushes up the time and labour costs so every cab is a compromise between price, sound quality and practicality. These things go in fashion a little too, we aren't entirely rational and at one time it was never mind the quality feel the weight

That's the problem with baked in loudness equalisation, you can eq most of it out but it's a huge task to do it well. Hoping this isn't a thread de-rail but I've been using FRFR for a while and the first thing you have to do is roll off the bass, preferably with a shelving filter if you are using PA speakers. The 6db floor reinforcement of the lowest frequencies is a killer. I use RCF310's both as PA and floor monitors with my duo (Sorry Russ no in-ears there, but we operate at much lower sound levels and I love the freedom) Bass through FOH needs no tweaking but I shelve 6db from 200Hz and use a 50hz HPF to get the balance with FOH back for the monitors. On resonant wooden stages I'm even more aggressive. FRFR needs a mind shift.

OK that's really interesting, I'm really contemplating trying custom fits, it is a big layout and i couldn't afford the £800-1000 some of the pro ones cost, but if they really stay put and make a better seal I'd be happy with the sound quality of the IE100's or thereabouts. Did you try the MEE's with custom moulds or universal plugs? Which ones worked best with your piano? I'm guessing those would also work best with vocals?

Damn you Now I'm going to have to lend mine to our singer, she's already commandeered my radio mic, now I'm going to lose my in-ears.😂😂

There you go, they are obviously different depths but the profile is ear shaped so similar, you can see that the plug goes off at a more acute angle on the zx10's, whether that is a good thing depends upon the angle your ear canal leaves your ears. For me the ZX10's are probably a better match but there's not a lot in it. All of us are different and the obvious solution is to get proper fitted custom in-ears. You can see I use the triple flange buds, they are a bit surgical in insertion and from time to time I can leave them behind in my ears but the seal is really good, the little flange goes right into my ears. Dave is right though; the buds are the real problem, and getting a good fit is all importan. I've tried dozens but unfortunately my two ears are completely different sizes and shapes

I'm using the IE100 pro. single driver but plenty of bass and to be honest a lot more detail in the bass due to the mids being more present. I couldn't get the sound I wanted out of the KZ10's. I sing as well as play bass and the huge midrange suckout of the KZ's just made my vocals sound horrible (well more horrible than even the reality) The IE 100's are much closer to my Sennheiser HD595's I use for personal practice. The lead vocals are much better too. I want as much isolation as I can get and then I don't need extreme volume. I want to save what's left of my hearing. the IE100's go much louder than I can handle without distortion and have more bass than I really want, nothing below 80Hz suits me for monitoring. It's the harmonics I need to tell how well or badly I'm playing. The live monitoring sound is now really pretty damn good and getting better as I climb the learning curve. That doesn't mean the KZ's are bad, if I didn't need to monitor my own vocals I'd be completely content with them. If cheap really is your aim I found that the KZ ZSN's are really rather good, my drummer pinched them to use and I realised I preferred them to the ZS10's

Just a heads up that this is a slight design fault with the P2. It's very easy to slide into the stereo position when either inserting batteries or sliding the outside sleeve back on, all of our band have done this at least once. Really simple to fix once you know and to check but the first time it happens can be a panicky moment

It's a great set list for me. It says straight away that this is a band who want to entertain an audience and gig a lot. Sure it's a bit cheesy and not what I'd listen to at home but the audience will love it and also love you if you play it with conviction. For me they aren't Dakota's they are Mustang Sally's and every covers band has a few of these in the set if they have the sense they were born with. Solid reliable songs that most audiences want you to play, floor fillers but also songs that cost you nothing to learn. It's like the posh restaurant that won't put salt on the table as the chef knows better than you, why be in hospitality if you don't like being hospitable. Personally something I try and avoid is being in a band with people who think a particular song is beneath them. It's usually because their part isn't up to their own selfish needs, no high C for the singer to show off their range, no guitar solo for the guitarist, straight 8's for the bassist and so on. You are in a band, being paid to entertain an audience who want to have fun. I've happily gigged We Will Rock You (no bass) and Seven Nation Army (even I'm bored with that, but the audience think it's my favourite song) Being in a general covers band isn't about you the musician it's about delivering pleasure, being in the centre of a big happy room. Of course there are other approaches, you can go down the tribute band or genre band routes or have a bit of identity, nothing wrong with a blues/classic rock/ska/soul/reggae band either. Dakota has great lyrics by the way and Tommy Cogbill's bass on Mustang Sally is a joy to play as is his line on Sweet Caroline. There's nothing as powerful as cheap perfume and cheap music.