flyfisher

Being the happy owner of a NAD Hifi amp, the acronym in the basschat context also confused me for a while, especially since it seemed to be used associated with loads of different bass amps, making me wonder if NAD was some sort of mega-corporation that owned a number of companies

I'm guessing there's no easy way of saying this without appearing insufferably smug . . . but how about ditching the TV if all you can do is moan about what is being shown on it? Our old CRT TV broke about five/six years ago. At first I thought it was a great opportunity to buy a new flatscreen TV, but when I started shopping around there were so many choices and options that I never got around to deciding. After a few weeks I found I no longer missed watching the same old stuff and had loads more spare time. Then, as iPlayer and other 'on demand' services became more established it became easier to watch specific stuff at a time convenient to me, especially after I bought an iPad . . . Plus I save a handy £140 (or whatever it is now) each year on a TV licence (which paid for the iPad and more!) Really, there can be life after television. Why not give it a try? It may do wonders for your blood pressure

Our band has the similar EMX212S, which is supposed to be 220W max. We use it as a vocal-only PA and a DI'd acoustic guitar and it's fine for small gigs - but we're not a particularly loud band. For larger gigs or when we play outdoors we slave it to a couple of Mackie SRM450s and use the Yamaha speakers as monitors.

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1416486033' post='2610669'] I thought more like skateboard parks? [/quote] That was Mozart in Salzburg

I've never bothered looking into it because I don't really care about insuring my gear when away from the house, but I wonder if it would be covered under the "all risks" cover as long as it's not being used for commercial purposes? My household policy has something like £10k all risks cover and only individual items over £1500 have to be specified. So I don't really see why a bass & amp should be any different to my DSLR & lenses. They are both personal possessions that I use outside the house for my own personal use for no commercial gain. On the 'van in the garage' scenario, the other concern is that cars are increasingly difficult to steal these days without the keys and thieves will often break into the house to steal the car keys. Many car policies will not cover theft unless the car is broken into (same with houses usually). So what happens if someone breaks into a house, steals the car keys and then steals the car. The house policy doesn't cover the car so will only pay out for the broken window and stolen keys and the car policy will not cover the car being taken because the keys have been used.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1416324126' post='2609061'] It's all band money. At this stage we don't expect to make a living. [/quote] This sounds more like a long term plan to 'make it' (and good luck to you), which is a very different scenario to bands playing for fun (paid or unpaid) and with no ambition to forge a career in music.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416395532' post='2609674'] The pubcos own the pubs. So unless the landlord can afford to buy the pub (very unlikely), the pub will be sold off for flats or housing. [/quote] If the pub can't support a mortgage then it's not really a viable business is it? Anyway, people are always moaning about high house prices and the need for more housing, so selling off unviable pubs for housing sounds like a win-win situation. Use it or lose it. It all reminds me of the sentiments surrounding the decline of the high street.

Yes, it could be bad for those reasons, but another scenario is that the pubco's pull out and more pubs go independent. As previously mentioned, some pubs really need to up their game. Who wants to go to a grotty place to drink when it's cheaper to stay at home in comfort and buy drinks from the supermarket. Restaurants manage to lure people out of their comfortable homes - and it's always cheaper to cook at home - so they must be offering something attractive to people.

On the plus side . . . . . . . nah, forget it. There is no plus side.

Funny you should say that. When I was regularly travelling to USA, I always tried to visit a large bookstore which seemed to me to be more like public library. They had a large 'coffee shop' area with sofas and tables and a few times each week they would host musical evenings. Not exactly full-on rock bands, more like singer/songwriters and acoustic duo/trios, but they had some very talented players. I've no idea of the commercial arrangements though. A friend is now doing a similar sort of thing in Hertford, on a monthly basis at the moment, though it's a non-paying gig, so probably not of much interest here

Still available on iPlayer for 7 days . . . http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01c6hw2

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1416302791' post='2608748'] . . . . . Enough Phil. [/quote] Good rant, with plenty of nails hit fair and square on the head. I've never been a big fan of 'pub culture' and you've pretty much summarised why, especially the environmental points. I suspect this is a big contributory factor to the rise in coffee shop popularity in recent years.

That's what truly professional musician do though, isn't it? They sell their skills. I really can't see any line that is crossed and it suddenly becomes a 'sell out too far' I suppose there might be some bricklayers who refuse to work on anything other than neo-gothic revival architecture, but in the main they just lay bricks in accordance to the drawings for whoever is paying them. Pro musicians are the same aren't they? Especially the ones who read music and are paid to play the exact notes put in front of them.

What does "selling out" really mean though? I could argue that a musician who will only play for money is the one 'selling out'. It's the ones who play for free, for the love of it, who are being true to themselves - especially if they are playing originals. Everyone else is selling out and gets grumpy if they don't get paid enough, but that's alright because that's the way the music business works isn't it? Show me any 'rock stars' who haven't sold themselves to get where they are. Sure, they can get all arsey and difficult when they are big enough but they've already sold their souls by then. I say "I could argue" because frankly I don't really care about any of it. I'm not aiming for rock stardom and had figured that out a while ago now. I just want to play a few original songs to a live audience who don't walk out and sometimes even tap their feet or get up and dance. Just for my own gratification. So far, so good.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416249366' post='2608324'] The bands I've seen doing the best are playing to young audiences (non smokers?) and playing music from the last 20years. These bands are packing the big O'Neils pubs regularly and getting paid pretty well for doing it. Bands will continue to be paid badly while there are middle aged blokes willing to subsidise their dream of being a rock star at the weekend. To get paid more you need to up your game and do something different. [/quote] Can't see the logic there. Youngish bands playing newish songs to youngish audiences, fine. Middle aged blokes playing 70s blues rock to older audiences, fine. Both playing to their own segments. What are the middle aged rock star wannabes supposed to do to 'up their game'. One Direction covers? I thought that was the function band domain There is no single formula. As for dreams of being a rock star, I kicked that into touch before leaving school when I realised it was never going to happen and got myself a proper job instead. Now I can afford to buy decent gear and play purely for fun without all the crap that clearly goes on when trying to scrap by on crap gig earnings. Horses for courses.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416249366' post='2608324'] Yes. I'm not sure how much longer the smoking ban can be blamed. It's been over 7 years now. From my point of view the pubs seem to have enough entertainment budget to spend several hundred pounds a month on Sky. I walk past any pub with Sky banners on it. IMO That's what's ripping the soul out of the pubs. [/quote] Good point about Sky. A lot of my footy-loving friends head down to the pub to watch the big matches. It sort of takes over the place so would always drive me out, but no more I guess than a band would drive out anyone out for a quiet drink and a natter. I suppose the landlord doesn't care what brings people in to buy beer. I seem to remember strippers were quite in vogue in some city pubs in the 80s.

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1416246684' post='2608285'] One of each, the only answer really. [/quote] Yep, that was my answer. No particular favourite has emerged, even though I've mostly played a P and have only had a J for a few years.

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1416245197' post='2608261'] The smoking ban pretty much closed a lot of pub culture and turned the others into foodie pubs - something that has taken off in a big way since. [/quote] Well I hardly ever went into a pub before the smoking ban. I wasn't gigging in those days but would have prevented me from doing so, so the smoking ban is no loss to me. I can't believe I'm unique in that regards. [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1416245197' post='2608261'] A pub near us have had numerous requests from their regulars to book our covers band, having seen us at other establishments nearby. Unfortunately the entertainment budget allocated by the brewery means that at our minimum fee we'd see off a months worth of entertainment budget in one night. [/quote] Numerous requests as long as someone else foots the bill? Not prepared to pay for the band themselves? If a band playing for free is deemed to be no good, what about a band that no one is willing to pay to hear?

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1416180931' post='2607781'] Is he as amenable to the idea of selling his beer at 1985 prices as well..? [/quote] That's the job of the supermarkets isn't it

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416216132' post='2607899'] I have always believed that relaxing the laws of music license was not going to do the musicians any good at all. It allowed too many pubs to put on music as a punt or afterthought and devalued the whole thing..IMO. It also allows too many bands out to compete. Sometimes in my town, there are 8-9 gigs on a saturday night so you can't tell me that pubs don't know the value to them... I wont play a lot of those places ...as I like to stay with my original venue picks and be fair to them and I think 2 gigs per town is enough, and also, those other pubs will cherry pick the nights so they are ad-hoc gigs, IMO. The other thing is that supermarket beer prices are kiiling the pub trade ...so I would price out drinking cheap at home. [/quote] Well, I suppose that sort of dictatorship approach is one solution

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416234725' post='2608128'] The thread is about becoming disillusioned with pub gigs for low money. All these other examples are all very nice but don't adress the op. Sure we play exceptional gigs for free and we play other gigs for lots of money. But why do we play to three people in a bar for £30? [/quote] The thread has teased out the fact that different people play for all sorts of different reasons. No real surprise there. I don't see any problem with playing to three people in a bar for £30, or nothing, or £300, if that's what someone wants to do. What surprises me is that people play a gig for their chosen terms and then moan about it. Or, in the case of the OP, assumed terms. And moaning about pubs not paying 'enough' seems about as useful as moaning about the price of petrol. It is what it is - take it or leave it.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1416231610' post='2608101'] Our buddy Pete holds a garden party every year. He invites whomsoever he wants to come and play there. All is purely by invitation, and all have a great time. We've been asked twice; Pete sometimes pops in to our rehearsals, bringing a bottle or two, or even tea..! 'Ciralstock' is a private festival held annually in a remote location not too far from us. We've been invited 3 times, now; all have a great time. No money changes hands, the PA, marquee, lights etc are all supplied by the tiny association of buddies (all professionals in their own field...) that enjoy putting it on. Our ex-2nd guitar is part of association putting on their village fête each year. We've been called up twice to play there, reception is excellent, a good time is had by all. Yes, there are stalls and eats being sold all around the village, the PA and stage are professionals (and very good, too...), as are some of the other acts and street artists. Our own local festival, 'Les 3 Elephants' (now moved further afield to Laval...) had, most years, an 'open-mic' marquee, where up-and-coming bands could have an opportunity to play before several thousand visitors. The whole festival was run by 300 volunteers and teams of professional security, marquees, events personnel over a 3-week set-up/tear-down period in summer. Most bands are paid, some are volunteers. Everyone wins. No jealousy, no back-biting, no big deal, no grief. Is it all so wrong..? You're living in your Universe. Respect. There are other Universes. Some of them are worthy of respect, too. [/quote] That sounds very similar to our experience. Our first 'international' gig (Wales :lol) was a private 'festival' held annually and we got an invite via our guitarist who had attended as a non-playing guest the previous year. He got talking about our band, as you do, and the organisers invited us to play the following year. We travelled down on the Friday and they put us up in their farmhouse, though we would be camping there for the rest of the weekend. On Saturday, we 'mucked in' and helped the band of organisers who arrived to set up the stage, the PA, the lighting, etc, while others sorted out barbecues and other facilities. There were four bands (including both of mine) on the bill and we started at about 7pm and played until about 1pm, followed by a few more hours of acoustic singalong in the large farmhouse kitchen. We must have done something right as we were invited for the following year, though only one of the bands I play with could make it that year. We have a standing invitation to play there again whenever we like. Economically, it was a disaster - 400 mile round trip to Wales, no fee, whole weekend 'lost', blah, blah, blah. Socially, it was a blast. Great event, great company, playing to a couple of hundred people, meeting new friends and generally having a fun time. What value should I put on all that? Dad is dead right . . . There are other universes

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416231552' post='2608100'] But if you'd agreed to do Cambridge and the band member had dropped out what happens then? If it's a pub gig paying £30 each where's the money and incentive to find a dep? Often the money we get paid is compensating us for keeping these dates free and not jumping off when 'something better comes along'. For the wedding season in summer you're being compensated for agreeing not to go on holiday for those dates in the summer in advance. Family parties etc. For a pub gig you drop out and no one is really that bothered. [/quote] Blimey - I'm beginning to think that maybe I'm not such a cynical old git as I thought. We've would never cancel an agreed gig. 'Our word is our bond' and all that - no need for contracts, deposits etc. This is easy for us because money is not an issue. We [u]turned down[/u] the Cambridge gig because we couldn't be sure we could all do it before their deadline - we didn't think about the earning potential and immediately say yes and then try to sort out a dep at a later date. Similarly, if someone asks us for something next summer, we would not be able to agree if someone had a holiday booked. But if there was no clash and we agreed then that commitment would have to be worked around when booking holidays. I can see the theoretical potential for problems, but it hasn't happened so far. Also, by only doing about one gig per month on average, it's far less likely we get clashes of better offers than if we were gigging a few times each week . . . . which would be far too much like hard work for us!!

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416229100' post='2608083'] I have to say that I am very sceptical about free bands being any good. I can get my head around the odd gig and being worthwhile to do for free but the carrot needs to be pretty appealing.. I guess this is relative ..? [/quote] Well, we could discuss 'good' until the cows come home, but I take your basic point. TBH, I don't think we're particularly good, certainly not as good as I'd like us to be, though I do think some of our originals are pretty good even if we don't do them full justice IMO. I know I rarely play a set without making some mistakes, though I'm getting better at covering them up But, we have a decent following of friends and acquaintances who turn out to see us when we play and their feedback is always positive. I don't really understand why they seem to consider us better than I think we are, but they do - as evidenced by all the invitations we get to play at parties and functions and the like ( I say 'all', but we're hardly inundated though they do account for around half of our dozen or so gigs each year). We've even done two weddings by invitation for goodness sake, which I was really nervous about because I didn't think we'd be good enough, but the happy couple were delighted - so someone must like what we do, even if we think we could be better. So yes, I guess 'good' is all relative and there is a wide spectrum, but I seriously doubt that 'good' can be measured by something as crude as money. Is the band taking £50 quid each really so much better than the band playing for free or are they themselves 'no good' because they can't make £100 each and are stuck playing dingy pubs instead of more prestigious corporate gigs, or arenas, or stadiums?

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1416228003' post='2608063'] I don't think the 'I enjoy it so why should I be paid?' theory works. I enjoy my day job, maybe I should just do that for free too? [/quote] That's not really my position. I wouldn't refuse payment if someone insisted, but it's simply not an issue for us either way. Funnily enough, we just turned down a reasonably prestigious paid gig (Selwyn Snowball, Cambridge uni) because one of the band couldn't move a family commitment. If the money was important or raising our profile was important or breaking into the Cambridge area was important to us then I guess we could have looked for a dep, but they're not so we pulled out. Mildly disappointing for me and the others who could make it, but no tantrums or threatening to leave because of lack of commitment, or sacking the person concerned. Besides, we'll be playing at a couple of private parties over the Christmas period anyway, so that'll keep us all happy. I don't think the 'day job' argument works either . . . unless you enjoy your job so much that you would still do it even if you didn't need the money. I enjoyed my job when I was working, but I was more than happy to retire as soon as I could afford to. I can't imagine me ever giving up playing music though. It simply isn't about the money.