funkle

That bass was one of the ones which triggered my GAS..... Thanks for chipping in Mike! Pete

Thanks for the info. By all accounts Jon's prices seem very reasonable for what you get. Now I just need to get the lolly together..... Thanks all! Pete

Thanks for your responses gentlemen. I am aware of Jon's prices on his website, but it's always helpful to get feedback from those who have ordered or had quotes...... Thanks again! Pete

Hi all. I am seriously considering asking Jon Shuker to build me a custom instrument. However, before I go to him, I'd like to have an idea of what to budget. The Jazz builds in the forums here have been great, and would be similar to what I am looking for. I was wondering if anyone who has had one built would mind contacting me to let me know the ballpark region of what they had to pay? I need to consider selling some basses to fund this, so any info would be of great help. PM me if you consider it inappropriate to post in the public forum. Mods - if this needs to be moved, please feel free to do so..... Thanks all for your help! Pete

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='130663' date='Jan 30 2008, 01:58 PM']I don't think anyone was ever advocating scales over chord tones as an approach to learning. I understand the chord tones approach but wonder if that is, of itself, a partial response (i.e. chord tones without scales tones would be pretty shallow). I think the two are symbiotic and can't see how you can understand the concept of a Bmaj7sharp11 chord without an understanding of scales that relate to it. If a chord is made up of the first, third, fifth, seventh etc, surely you need to know what it is the first, third, seventh etc of? It's a bit chicken and egg to me...[/quote] Thanks for your response; this is a good discussion! Perhaps I misunderstood some posts; I think some do advocate the playing of scales and modes as an approach to learn how to solo. I have also seen this in many educational materials, which is how I ended up practicing scales for a couple of years...... Chord tones without other tones [i]can[/i] be shallow, although watching Jeff Berlin improvise with [i]only[/i] chord tones was a real education to see in person, but the use of other scale tones, from the way I understand it, often turns out to be the improviser substituting an additional chord, or adding chord tensions that are found in the melody (but may not necessarily be annotated in the chord). The limit to how far you can go with chord subs seems only to be limited by your knowledge of harmony, from what I can see...... Overall, though - I can agree with the 'symbiosis' argument. I'm [i]not[/i] advocating ignoring scales. It is essential to know the theory of how the major scale is constructed, precisely as you point out, to be able to understand how essential chord tones and chord tensions are formed. Nor am I saying that scales/modes are unimportant in music - Egyptian music, Flamenco, Balkan music come to mind, not to mention the modal playing on Kind Of Blue, etc - but I think too much emphasis has been put on playing the whole scale or set of scales, as opposed to focusing on the 'functional workings' of that scale (i.e. chords). I suspect that academic post-hoc analysis of jazz has provided many with the 'scales/modes are important' argument.....because when you put all the notes on a piece of paper, they may conform to this scale or that one........whereas my understanding is that what the jazz player thinks about, if at all, are the chord tones and the substitutes they are using over a given set of changes. That was how every instructor at the Players School thought, taught, and discussed improvisation, and to my ears, it worked. NB. I reiterate - if anyone knows of a teacher or school that teaches in the way that Jeff Berlin's one does, but in the UK, please let me know....... Pete

Thanks for your responses gentlemen. Mike - the book on harmony I received was written by one of the guys running the jazz course at The Players School of Music. It is unpublished; only an 'in-house' book. Written by a guy who I got to know well and saw gig a few times - Matt Bokulic (great piano player). Nonetheless, it has served me very well. The chapter headings include 'voice leading', 'secondary dominants', 'tritone substitutions', 'primary subordinate substitutes', etc as well as basic major scale and chord thoery. I pressured him to publish; Matt tells me they may do so later this year. I may be able to scan for those who are interested at some point, but I'm not in the country at the moment, so...... Mcgraham - didn't mean to make the point so strongly! I just read back what I wrote and it came across more forcefully than I intended. My apologies. I agree with what you write - especially about ear training! I've just found too many people/music courses which emphasised scales/modes and not chords - and I hate to say I'm including some of the local music graduates here - then people are surprised when what they play sounds poor. It took me a long time to find a music course which emphasised chord tones and not scales/modes as the basis for jazz improv. If anyone knows of a similar school/course in the UK I am all ears........as it is I'm going to have to pay to go back to Florida again to study with Jeff! I should have added a list of other things essential to good improv. I made no emphasis on the importance of listening to the others who you are playing with when improvising, transcribing solos, ear training, adding other chord tensions (2nds, 4ths, 6ths) as your vocabulary develops, the need to play with others regularly, the use of rhythm and s p a c e, not being afraid to play less as opposed to more and that shredding at high speed, while a wonderful self-fulfilling experience, is not always as gratifying for the listener. Stepping down from the soapbox....... Pete

I will interject here. I [b]completely disagree [/b]that scales are the way forward for practicing improvisation. I think they are, functionally, a dead end, and moreover listen to someone shredding on them and it just doesn't sound that good. I am not a full-time musician. I have been playing for about 15 years now, and been interested in jazz for the last 8 years or so. I am not a brilliant improviser, but I am improving..... Nonetheless, having studied with both Jeff Berlin and Carol Kaye now, I can see the way forward, and my playing has improved a lot since my time with Jeff (within the the last couple of months). (See my review of the Players School of Music for more info....) Both Carol and Jeff advocate the use of [b]chord tones[/b], not scales, when improvising. Chord tones, and substitutes for those chords, are how most jazz solos are played. Now my understanding of harmony is improving, both aurally and on the written page, I agree with them completely. I spent years playing + practicing modes. I couldn't find a way to 'apply' them. Perhaps an understanding of their utility will come later. I'd like to demonstrate how chord tones can improve your solos. Here's a challenge for you to help improve both your knowledge of the neck and understanding of how 'voice leading' in chord tones between chords works: (for the purists, this is not pure voice leading, where the chord tones nearly always descend, but that's the nearest analogy I can draw here.....) Take a jazz tune, or any tune for that matter. Starting at the lowest point on the neck, play the all the chord tones of that chord going up the neck. When you change to the next chord, move to the nearest chord tone possible. Do this up and down the neck. e.g. I - IV - V7 - I | Cmaj | F Maj | G7 | Cmaj | try | E G B C | E F A C | D F G B | C E G B | |(1st inversion) | (3rd inv) | (2nd inv) | (root position) | This is moving between inversions of the different chords smoothly. Yes, all the scale tones of C Major are there, but you are functioning within each chord independently. Moreover, because you are treating each chord independently, you can alter them to make it sound different. e.g. Want to make it hipper? Try some primary subordinate substitutes: | C maj E min | F maj | G7 | Emin Cmaj | Want to really make it hip? Try a tritone sub for G7: | Cmaj E min | F maj | G7 Db7 | Emin Cmaj | Now lets go all out!! Try some secondary dominant substitutes for some of the chords: | Cmaj B7 Emin | C7 F maj | G7 Db7 | Emin G7 Cmaj | ............... I am only scratching the surface of what functional jazz harmony means, and how it can be used. I'm still working through the harmony book I got from Jeff......... However this is how people who can really play tell me how it is done. I agree. Pete

Agree about the comments re: this bass being one of the best Jazzes about. I've sat down and played every Jazz I could find over the last few years - Sadowsky (NYC/Tokyo - they just don't float my boat for some reason!! heretic), Bacchus (great basses! and good value for money), Modulus VJ (great Jazz basses, but upper fret access a problem with the traditional body shape), Celinder, Fender (duh!), Hamer Cruise (still own one - VERY well built for the cash - better than many high end basses!), Lull (nice, but didn't do much for me), Pensa, Blade, Pedulla (nice), Peavey (yes! Peavey), Status, the old Trace Elliot T-Bass, the list goes on further.... Long story short, for the money, the DJ4 is a very very good instrument. One of the first Jazz clones to really deal with the issue of upper fret access well. I just wish the neck was 3-piece + graphite stifffeners as standard, as I worry about warpage of 1-piece necks in the longer term. If it had that also it would be absolutely stellar value. Still considering trying to get a DJ4 in black finish/rosewood board to compare sonically against the white finish/maple board one I've got..... Pete

[quote name='funkle' post='92998' date='Nov 22 2007, 08:59 PM']Quick question - has anyone been able to play the USA Darryl Jones version to compare it against the Skyline version? Pete[/quote] Answer to my own question. Was in Tokyo recently and played a USA DJ4 with a maple fretboard. Didn't sound better than my bass. The woods were nicer - nice birdseye on the maple neck that my bass doesn't have - and the tuners worked much more smoothly (Hipshot instead of Hipshot licensed tuners). Not sure if it had graphite stiffeners in the neck though; the neck appeared to be a 3-piece instead of the 1-piece construction of the Skylines. Think the pickups were Lakland instead of Aeros too. Think I prefer the Aeros. Overall, though, in spite of being built better, it certainly didn't seem worth paying 3x as much as what I paid to have one. Pete

Quick question Does the set neck affect the tone significantly? I've been wondering about having one of these built, and I just love the Fodera-style set neck and lack of heel - but just wonder if the lack of bolt-on construction here significantly affects the tone. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Pete

So when are you going to post a review of the Shuker vs the Sei? Very nice bass BTW, gave me instant GAS to have one built for myself..... Pete

Quick question - has anyone been able to play the USA Darryl Jones version to compare it against the Skyline version? Pete

It really was a great experience. I would highly recommend it, if you can afford it. I would be even more pleased to find something like this closer to home.....maybe people know if there's something similar in London? As for the books....they ones they use are all written in-house. So sadly I cannot make any recommendations. Pete

Let's see.....the costs broke down like this: Registration fee - $100 (about 50 UKP) Course fees for 1 month - $1700 (call it 850 UKP) Housing - $600 (300 UKP) Food - $400 (200 UKP) Books - $60 (30 UKP) Car Rental for 5 weeks - 400 UKP Petrol - only 45 quid so far!! All told, not cheap at about 1875 quid or so. Pretty expensive for one month! But I wasn't willing to commit more money for longer until I saw what the place was like. Also, you might be able to get by without a car.......but in the USA that is extremely difficult. If you came for 10 weeks, then the cost per day could actually be a good deal cheaper - you might be able to negotiate better rates for housing, car rental. Course fees for 10 weeks are about $3800. Hope that helps. Pete

This has also been posted by myself over at [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4835537#post4835537"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.p...537#post4835537[/url]. The website for the Players School is at [url="http://www.playerschool.com"]http://www.playerschool.com[/url] Not sure if this is the right forum, but any mods can move this if they feel it's appropriate....... Okay, after a month at the Players School of Music, I think I can now post a review. It may be of use to others who are considering attending. Overall, the whole experience was extremely positive. I can wholehearted recommend this place as place to learn your instrument solidly, and learn musicianship to a professional standard. Value for money is absolutely outstanding. In retrospect, it might have been worth going for 10 weeks, but the 4 week program has given me enough work to do for the next few years at the very least. I imagine if you did the year-long course, you'd end up as a monster; some guys do two years and I think would be absolutely astounding musicians. Interestingly, Jeff Berlin gives a talk on the first day of the course where he essentially says that your playing is likely to get worse over the first month of being there, with subsequent radical improvement. My experience did not quite follow this. My background is that I am a full-time professional who does music as a treasured hobby. I have gigged plenty in the past doing funk, soul, and some funkier/fusion-type jazz, but not real straight-up jazz. Before I came here, I could already sight read bass clef (to an okay level only ), chord charts (moderately), play chord tones for the min/maj/dim/augmented/dom7th/m7b5 chords (in only a few positions), had a a little understanding of the chordal scale, and had some very simple harmonic analysis under my belt (how I – ii - V chords function, some understanding of common chord progressions, tritone subs, and some other subs from Carol Kaye's writings). I did not truly understand harmony that well, and my technique on the instrument was (and is) fairly average. As it turns out, my fretboard knowledge was nothing like as good as I had hoped either. On the plus side, I had recently started teaching myself piano, and could read a little treble clef because of this. I sat a harmony exam at the beginning of the course to place me in the correct class for this. I ended up in Harmony 1 (the starter class), but as I was a little further on in my understanding they also let me sit in on Harmony 2. This kind of attitude was common at the school; if you wanted to push yourself harder/further they were very happy to accommodate you. Although this kind of assessment is a tad painful, it needed to be done to understand how my comments may or may not apply to you. Right. All that out of the way; now we can look at what I gained from my time. My schedule consisted of 11 hours a week of taught classes: 1 hour x2/wk Ear Training 1 hour x2/wk Private Lessons (with Jeff Berlin) 1 hour /wk Harmony 4 hours /wk Ensembles 1 hour /wk Chart Reading/Performance 1 hour /wk Guitar Maintenance Let's break each of these down. [b]Ear Training:[/b] I was in the beginner class. We were taught solfege, sight reading treble clef, conducting patterns for 4/4, 3/4, and 2/4 time, and simple rhythm patterns. Each week the exercises ratcheted up in difficulty, and I imagine if I stayed on longer things would get a lot harder. I passed the midterm exam (singing and conducting the major scale in solfege from memory, then the same for the ‘I ‘chord) before leaving. I have noticed a small but definite difference in how fast I pick up things now, but a great deal more work would be needed here to have 'jazz ears'. I’m going to have to keep on with this after I leave, as well as everything else…… [b]Harmony:[/b] There is one textbook for all Harmony classes. The teacher for this is a great guy, a seasoned pianist named Matt Bokulic; he also wrote the textbook. Harmony 1 during my time there covered the chromatic scale, accidentals, major scale construction, clef types, major/minor intervals and inverting of these, and tetrachords/Circle of Fifths. It will move on after I leave to triad construction, inversions, and the chordal scale. Harmony 2 covered major, minor, m7b5, and dom 7th chords over the same time, with students expected to be able to write these in root position or any of the three inversions. This class pushed me and was really helpful - I can now construct these chords in both treble and bass clef and am using them to help rip apart jazz tunes to help practice them..... The harmony book Matt wrote seems pretty complete for only 32 pages - but it is 'basic' harmony. I note that after the sections I have already covered, it covers subordinate chord subs for primary chords, secondary dominants, tritone subs, modulation, voice leading, further chord tensions, and direct harmonic analysis. Seems pretty good for a ‘basic’ harmony book - I haven't even hit those sections yet.... Before I left, Matt gave me pretty much a complete list of things to do/write/play harmonically to help teach myself jazz further. That's why I now have a list of things to practice/do that will take a couple of years....or ten years..... [b]Private Lessons:[/b] It has to be said, this is one of the main reasons to come here, if no other.....private lessons with Jeff Berlin twice a week! Sadly, during my time, Jeff was only there for two weeks, and another chap, Joe Public, had to stand in for Jeff during the last two weeks of lessons. Nonetheless, Jeff really pushes you hard and I noticed improvement over the four weeks. I would have done a lot better over 10 weeks though.... Jeff had me: 1. Relearn my left hand technique. 2. Write out and play all the chords to a couple of standards. 3. When I finished with that, I then wrote out all the inversions to those chords and played them. 4. Improved my fretboard knowledge by getting me to play a standard and play all chord tones all the way up and down the neck, connecting them smoothly. 5. Subsequently I started writing out some beginner solos using only chord tones. Needless to say, my soloing, reading, fretboard knowledge, and left hand technique have all improved. Studying with Jeff was interesting. He has the ability to pick out what you need to do in a very short space of time - most of my lessons lasted about 20 mins or so - but he managed to motivate and push me to improve/do a lot in a very short space of time. I enjoyed studying with Joe, but Jeff is really something else. He can occasionally be impatient, but if he knows you're doing your work and practicing regularly, then he can tell extremely quickly and he is very supportive. I always felt able to approach him (or any member of the staff) with questions. It's worth pointing out here that private tuition is available for free when you're at the school. [b]Ensembles:[/b] Every day except Wednesday, every player was expected to play in an 'ensemble' - the level of which was determined by playing ability, but was dynamic; as people improved/felt the need to change, and if the instructors agreed, people could be moved - the ensemble typically composed of a drummer, guitarist, bassist, and others as available. Tunes played would start with simple chord progressions and move to Standards, with emphasis on group interaction, soloing, comping and walking correctly, and suggestions for playing generally. Basically, playing in a band 4 days a week is great for getting your musical interaction and playing/soloing together.....enough said. [b]Chart reading/Performance:[/b] This class focused on sight reading correctly and playing different styles of music as you would on a gig. I could sight read the first book pretty well so the instructor gave me some of his arrangements to sight read, which was just right for my level of playing, but also pushed me. This class had very little emphasis on soloing - just sticking to the music. Very useful.....and some hip tunes to play too. [b]Guitar Maintenance:[/b] This was the surprise class to me - I really enjoyed it. I had wondered if it was just a ‘fill-in’ hour, but it was anything but. The guy who teaches it, Mick Donner, is a very well known tech (personal tech for Jeff, as well as a lot of traveling pros), and he has plenty of stories to tell from his days at Peavey, Dean, Washburn, and Parker.....not even mentioning his gigging days too....This class was a pleasant hour on a Friday with an opportunity to hear about all things technical with bass guitars and improved my knowledge of the physics side of instrument in a significant way. Mick also does set-up work for people on the course if you ask nicely..... Quick comment on the school grounds etc......the school itself is found behind the local Sam Ash store and has some interestingly faux-Greco Roman grounds. Used to be a restaurant, apparently. There are quite a few practice rooms, but there's always competition for them. There's one main room for ensembles and a classroom for the Harmony/Ear Training/Guitar Tech classes. The school’s facilities are overall adequate, not very fancy (a few bathrooms, a kitchen and office/hanging out area, lots of bass/guitar/music mags also). They also have WiFi and a PC there for you to check your email – that was a very nice touch. Overall, this was a really great month. Generally I practiced/wrote out music/did ear training for 3 hours or more a day; I would generally come in for 9 for classes and leave at 5 having done all my work/practice. I didn't practice more in the evenings unless I had not done so during the day; however, I would do harmony writing and other bits of work at home, especially to help improve my own understanding. Make no mistake, do not expect an easy ride if you decide to come here. Although 11 hours a week of taught classes doesn't sound like much, you will work VERY hard to stay on top of everything that's thrown at you. This is no classical conservatory; neither is it the halls of stuffy academia – the emphasis here is on being a rounded (and working) musician. Jazz is the taught music here, because it encompasses a huge amount of harmony, reading, technique, and interaction......but I note just about everyone who is here (students and instructors) like a whole range of music, from rock, heavy metal and funk to jazz, Cuban music, and so on. If you come here I can honestly put my hand on my heart and say I think you will be doing the best thing for your playing that you could ever do. And pretty cheaply too, when you compare to other music schools. I am not sure if there are any comparable programmes in the UK. I would appreciate hearing about it if there are! I'll miss it. Pete

Also remember that EQ on most bass amps can be more flexible than those found on onboard EQ....... Pete

Passive. I spent years playing active basses because they were meant to be 'better'. However, I have gradually found the sound of passive pickups to be more 'airy', 'open', and 'natural' to me. Your mileage may vary, though. Once I experimented with a variety of pickups, I found the ones which sounded/were voiced 'the best' (i.e. for me), and I haven't looked back since. Took me a long time to get over my own prejudices - I personally owned a Warwick Thumb, a Streamer Stage II, Peavey G-Bass.....also playing every bass I could lay my hands on, including Sadowsky, Zon, Musicman, Pedulla, Sei, and many others (I am a freak...didn't like Sadowsky!! ).....eventually I got over my own prejudices and bought a Hamer Cruise with 2Tek bridge - it had an active system (EMG) which I disliked for its 'unnatural' sound and replaced with Fender CS60's (single coils) - bam!, that was me, totally happy. Keep in mind though, eventually all bass signals go through some kind of EQ - I just happen to like mine offboard, as opposed to onboard. BTW, these days I own a Lakland DJ4, the Hamer Cruise, and a Fender Jazz fretless with a Status neck. I have just modified the Jazz to accept Graphtech piezo pickups at the bridge + it needs a preamp to buffer that signal - it sounds wonderful! .....So, there are situations where active electronics are a necessity, as piezos won't sound right without it. Hasn't altered the magnetic PU tone at all, so it's doing its job perfectly, as far as I am concerned. Pete

Hello mate Where in Scotland are you? I'm in Edinburgh. Pete