funkle

Hi all I'm trying to find a link that I thought I saw on here, to a *.pdf file with a nice way to approach structuring practice time. However, I've trawled a few threads and I can't find it. I think it may link to one of the music schools, but I'm darned if I can actually find the thread or the link! Can anyone help? Pete

Hi all. I've been following this thread a while, as I have been wondering the same things as the original poster; however I have had more in the way of time constraints to consider. My answer was not to study in the UK at all, but to go to the Players School Of Music in Florida and study with Jeff Berlin. For a fuller review, search my threads. I posted a really long one after I finished up a 1-month course there last year. I'm intending to go back either Oct or Jan next year for 3 months. Cost including flights/accom/tuiton/car hire/etc for 1 month was about £1700. I lived real tight for a while. Cost for 3 months is going to be around £3000. I think it's great value for money though. 6 months later I'm still improving and practicising daily. Pete

I've been doing this on 4 string recently. I picked up a book called 'The Classical Fake Book'. It's out there as a pdf file..... I haven't done a lot with it, but I have transposed Bach's 'Jesu, joy of man's desiring' into bass clef and played with the arrangement a little. Not much tapping, just playing it straight. Great sight-reading practice. I may take other pieces and re-arrange them/transpose. There's book of Bach bass transciptions which I bought also - I'm playing the Prelude in G major, again very straight, no tapping. Can't remember who it's written by at the moment...type 'j.s. bach for bass' into googl;e and you'll get it. Essentially I think the author took the cello suites and changed a couple of notes here and there. Hope that helps. Pete

That bass was one of the ones which triggered my GAS..... Thanks for chipping in Mike! Pete

Thanks for the info. By all accounts Jon's prices seem very reasonable for what you get. Now I just need to get the lolly together..... Thanks all! Pete

Thanks for your responses gentlemen. I am aware of Jon's prices on his website, but it's always helpful to get feedback from those who have ordered or had quotes...... Thanks again! Pete

Hi all. I am seriously considering asking Jon Shuker to build me a custom instrument. However, before I go to him, I'd like to have an idea of what to budget. The Jazz builds in the forums here have been great, and would be similar to what I am looking for. I was wondering if anyone who has had one built would mind contacting me to let me know the ballpark region of what they had to pay? I need to consider selling some basses to fund this, so any info would be of great help. PM me if you consider it inappropriate to post in the public forum. Mods - if this needs to be moved, please feel free to do so..... Thanks all for your help! Pete

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='130663' date='Jan 30 2008, 01:58 PM']I don't think anyone was ever advocating scales over chord tones as an approach to learning. I understand the chord tones approach but wonder if that is, of itself, a partial response (i.e. chord tones without scales tones would be pretty shallow). I think the two are symbiotic and can't see how you can understand the concept of a Bmaj7sharp11 chord without an understanding of scales that relate to it. If a chord is made up of the first, third, fifth, seventh etc, surely you need to know what it is the first, third, seventh etc of? It's a bit chicken and egg to me...[/quote] Thanks for your response; this is a good discussion! Perhaps I misunderstood some posts; I think some do advocate the playing of scales and modes as an approach to learn how to solo. I have also seen this in many educational materials, which is how I ended up practicing scales for a couple of years...... Chord tones without other tones [i]can[/i] be shallow, although watching Jeff Berlin improvise with [i]only[/i] chord tones was a real education to see in person, but the use of other scale tones, from the way I understand it, often turns out to be the improviser substituting an additional chord, or adding chord tensions that are found in the melody (but may not necessarily be annotated in the chord). The limit to how far you can go with chord subs seems only to be limited by your knowledge of harmony, from what I can see...... Overall, though - I can agree with the 'symbiosis' argument. I'm [i]not[/i] advocating ignoring scales. It is essential to know the theory of how the major scale is constructed, precisely as you point out, to be able to understand how essential chord tones and chord tensions are formed. Nor am I saying that scales/modes are unimportant in music - Egyptian music, Flamenco, Balkan music come to mind, not to mention the modal playing on Kind Of Blue, etc - but I think too much emphasis has been put on playing the whole scale or set of scales, as opposed to focusing on the 'functional workings' of that scale (i.e. chords). I suspect that academic post-hoc analysis of jazz has provided many with the 'scales/modes are important' argument.....because when you put all the notes on a piece of paper, they may conform to this scale or that one........whereas my understanding is that what the jazz player thinks about, if at all, are the chord tones and the substitutes they are using over a given set of changes. That was how every instructor at the Players School thought, taught, and discussed improvisation, and to my ears, it worked. NB. I reiterate - if anyone knows of a teacher or school that teaches in the way that Jeff Berlin's one does, but in the UK, please let me know....... Pete

Thanks for your responses gentlemen. Mike - the book on harmony I received was written by one of the guys running the jazz course at The Players School of Music. It is unpublished; only an 'in-house' book. Written by a guy who I got to know well and saw gig a few times - Matt Bokulic (great piano player). Nonetheless, it has served me very well. The chapter headings include 'voice leading', 'secondary dominants', 'tritone substitutions', 'primary subordinate substitutes', etc as well as basic major scale and chord thoery. I pressured him to publish; Matt tells me they may do so later this year. I may be able to scan for those who are interested at some point, but I'm not in the country at the moment, so...... Mcgraham - didn't mean to make the point so strongly! I just read back what I wrote and it came across more forcefully than I intended. My apologies. I agree with what you write - especially about ear training! I've just found too many people/music courses which emphasised scales/modes and not chords - and I hate to say I'm including some of the local music graduates here - then people are surprised when what they play sounds poor. It took me a long time to find a music course which emphasised chord tones and not scales/modes as the basis for jazz improv. If anyone knows of a similar school/course in the UK I am all ears........as it is I'm going to have to pay to go back to Florida again to study with Jeff! I should have added a list of other things essential to good improv. I made no emphasis on the importance of listening to the others who you are playing with when improvising, transcribing solos, ear training, adding other chord tensions (2nds, 4ths, 6ths) as your vocabulary develops, the need to play with others regularly, the use of rhythm and s p a c e, not being afraid to play less as opposed to more and that shredding at high speed, while a wonderful self-fulfilling experience, is not always as gratifying for the listener. Stepping down from the soapbox....... Pete

I will interject here. I [b]completely disagree [/b]that scales are the way forward for practicing improvisation. I think they are, functionally, a dead end, and moreover listen to someone shredding on them and it just doesn't sound that good. I am not a full-time musician. I have been playing for about 15 years now, and been interested in jazz for the last 8 years or so. I am not a brilliant improviser, but I am improving..... Nonetheless, having studied with both Jeff Berlin and Carol Kaye now, I can see the way forward, and my playing has improved a lot since my time with Jeff (within the the last couple of months). (See my review of the Players School of Music for more info....) Both Carol and Jeff advocate the use of [b]chord tones[/b], not scales, when improvising. Chord tones, and substitutes for those chords, are how most jazz solos are played. Now my understanding of harmony is improving, both aurally and on the written page, I agree with them completely. I spent years playing + practicing modes. I couldn't find a way to 'apply' them. Perhaps an understanding of their utility will come later. I'd like to demonstrate how chord tones can improve your solos. Here's a challenge for you to help improve both your knowledge of the neck and understanding of how 'voice leading' in chord tones between chords works: (for the purists, this is not pure voice leading, where the chord tones nearly always descend, but that's the nearest analogy I can draw here.....) Take a jazz tune, or any tune for that matter. Starting at the lowest point on the neck, play the all the chord tones of that chord going up the neck. When you change to the next chord, move to the nearest chord tone possible. Do this up and down the neck. e.g. I - IV - V7 - I | Cmaj | F Maj | G7 | Cmaj | try | E G B C | E F A C | D F G B | C E G B | |(1st inversion) | (3rd inv) | (2nd inv) | (root position) | This is moving between inversions of the different chords smoothly. Yes, all the scale tones of C Major are there, but you are functioning within each chord independently. Moreover, because you are treating each chord independently, you can alter them to make it sound different. e.g. Want to make it hipper? Try some primary subordinate substitutes: | C maj E min | F maj | G7 | Emin Cmaj | Want to really make it hip? Try a tritone sub for G7: | Cmaj E min | F maj | G7 Db7 | Emin Cmaj | Now lets go all out!! Try some secondary dominant substitutes for some of the chords: | Cmaj B7 Emin | C7 F maj | G7 Db7 | Emin G7 Cmaj | ............... I am only scratching the surface of what functional jazz harmony means, and how it can be used. I'm still working through the harmony book I got from Jeff......... However this is how people who can really play tell me how it is done. I agree. Pete

Agree about the comments re: this bass being one of the best Jazzes about. I've sat down and played every Jazz I could find over the last few years - Sadowsky (NYC/Tokyo - they just don't float my boat for some reason!! heretic), Bacchus (great basses! and good value for money), Modulus VJ (great Jazz basses, but upper fret access a problem with the traditional body shape), Celinder, Fender (duh!), Hamer Cruise (still own one - VERY well built for the cash - better than many high end basses!), Lull (nice, but didn't do much for me), Pensa, Blade, Pedulla (nice), Peavey (yes! Peavey), Status, the old Trace Elliot T-Bass, the list goes on further.... Long story short, for the money, the DJ4 is a very very good instrument. One of the first Jazz clones to really deal with the issue of upper fret access well. I just wish the neck was 3-piece + graphite stifffeners as standard, as I worry about warpage of 1-piece necks in the longer term. If it had that also it would be absolutely stellar value. Still considering trying to get a DJ4 in black finish/rosewood board to compare sonically against the white finish/maple board one I've got..... Pete

[quote name='funkle' post='92998' date='Nov 22 2007, 08:59 PM']Quick question - has anyone been able to play the USA Darryl Jones version to compare it against the Skyline version? Pete[/quote] Answer to my own question. Was in Tokyo recently and played a USA DJ4 with a maple fretboard. Didn't sound better than my bass. The woods were nicer - nice birdseye on the maple neck that my bass doesn't have - and the tuners worked much more smoothly (Hipshot instead of Hipshot licensed tuners). Not sure if it had graphite stiffeners in the neck though; the neck appeared to be a 3-piece instead of the 1-piece construction of the Skylines. Think the pickups were Lakland instead of Aeros too. Think I prefer the Aeros. Overall, though, in spite of being built better, it certainly didn't seem worth paying 3x as much as what I paid to have one. Pete

Quick question Does the set neck affect the tone significantly? I've been wondering about having one of these built, and I just love the Fodera-style set neck and lack of heel - but just wonder if the lack of bolt-on construction here significantly affects the tone. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Pete